Disappointing. I was given the belt almost every week at school and it made me into a cruel, psychotic drug addict. Now our so-called elected representatives would deny future generations such opportunities. PC gone nuts.
Yeah and I don't have kids obv so I don't actually know if I would do it myself but what I do know is that many of my friends in a state of deranged exhaustion have smacked their children and the idea of criminalising that is fooking idiotic
You have a daughter tho don't you laz? And a nanny. My friends with boys (and no help), I think it's a miracle they haven't just abandoned them in the nest.
It's not about smacking being ideal child rearing, it's about understanding the reality of parenting for some people.
“I don't have kids obv so I don't actually know if I would do it myself”
I HAVE ABSOLUTE FAITH THAT YOU WOULD REGULARLY HIT THEM AND THEY WOULD SOON LEARN THAT IF THEY DON’T DO WHAT MUMMY WANTS THEN MUMMY IS GOING TO HIT THEM UNTIL THEY DO
AND WE SHOULDN’T BE DISCOURAGING THIS: DISCIPLINE IS VERY IMPORTANT!
Let's be honest,laz, you spend only marginally more time functionally child rearing than I do.
I don't think erring on the side of compassion for people with hard lives is some mad irrational take. I mean frankly I don't hugely care if children all get taken into care because of stasi-like misunderstandings but others might.
You have a daughter tho don't you laz? And a nanny. My friends with boys (and no help), I think it's a miracle they haven't just abandoned them in the nest.
I was much more trouble than my brother was and got smacked far more often.
I can see your point to the extent that the reasons people hit their kids are sometimes understandable at a human level, but so are the reasons people drink and drive. Making something criminal is not the same as saying it is unforgivable.
I spend enormous amounts of time looking after my kids.
It's not about forgiveness, it's about pragmatism. If a teacher is criminalised for smacking her child she will lose her job and the family will lose that income.
I want the next Rebus to be about the hunt for a random Edinburgh nutter who beats children and then shags a really old person. (Not rebus, obv, he has heart issues.)
Those in favour of smacking always pitch this as a "light tap" or "a useful option to help discipline an unruly child" and say things like "it never did me any harm".
Those against are usually those who were beaten and brutalised as a child, and there are a LOT more of them than you think.
I would advocate a sensible compromise that in order to do this, you must obtain a "smacker's permit" which enables you to administer 5 light smacks per permit. And to obtain a permit, you need to be publicly flogged with a shit-dipped cat-o-9-tails.
Can I "lightly smack" a truculent trainee who doesn't prioritise my work? Why is it illegal to assault someone of my own size but it's fine to beat a small child?
The arguments that it was within a man's right to discipline his wife were trotted out in much the same way as Clergs now seeks to defend those hitting children. Before that the same arguments were used to justify beating servants and before that slaves.
With time people have come to accept all those were wrong and with time people will look back with bemusement at how we could be so cruel as to hit our children.
fooks me off when you see parents outside of school screaming at kids because they're late and the kid is being slow.
The kid is too young to tell the time. You as the parent are in charge. Get up fooking earlier and don't be so rushed and stressy. You know kids are in the clouds, sort your fooking schedule out and don't take it out on the kids
I don't think a child can do anything that merits a parent hitting them with a frying pan to break their finger. Clergham, the fact that you think they can, speaks volumes.
I am also musing on the logistics of a frying pan as a finger breaker. It does seem as more of a facial assault weapon a la Vic and Bob. Using the flat side to break a finger rather than bruise it would take incredible force. She must have used the side in a downward swipe - a le crusset would certainly break a small child's digit is applied thus.
The knowing it’s not funny and still doing it is part of the pathology tho. All attention is good attention, never miss an opportunity to shout at the haters etc.
he said "thought I deserved it". Past tense. In any case, a good many victims of abuse consider that their abuser was driven to do it. Even years later, the guilt can make this belief unshakable.
bam I cannot make further attempts at amusing comments because someone who wasn't there and doesn't know if it really happened has become OUTRAGED ON THE INTERNET.
I am sure the daily mail and the CIA will shortly be doorstepping your old dear
I think it's notable that the people most likely to be aggro on this topic are also the most likely to have actually hit someone. I cannot imagine bam ever hits people (except with sweet legal pwns).
It did really happen. I'm sure ive mentioned it on here before.
I thought I'd tell my mum when she was cooking because she's relaxed when cooking but didn't account for her being in the vicinity of weapons.
All my mates from school/ our block were Ghanaian or Nigerian or mixed race and compared to some of the punishments they got from their mums I got off really lightly.
It was all just seen as being really funny. Whose mum was the most vicious
I must say that I was always a bit meh on this topic prior to having kids - clergs was like you thinking oh well there are times when I understand. Now I have them I’m actually much more clear that under no circumstances should you be hitting your kid. It’s a total loss of control as a parent and it’s utterly unacceptable.
I amon board with it being unacceptable, TC,I just don't think good parents would ever do it out of choice (ie it's an automatic response when rational thought is impossible) so I struggle with the idea of a response that effectively punishes the entire family for the long term.
I agree nowadays. Could never in a million years imagine hitting one of my kids (I'd break a bone)
However not going to judge my mum about it. She was surrounded by parents did the same, I was probably a little aunt, she had to protect my childhood from loads of bad stuff and she had the stress of us losing our flat and being dead poor.
In my life clouds are candy floss and time is plentiful. I'm not going to judge her and certainly not going to call her a psycho.
Whilst I wouldn't have said I was anti-smacking pre-children, I can't imagine ever hitting them.
I have a lot of sympathy for Clergs' view - I'm in a very privileged position and am the part time parent so don't as a whole have to deal with them at their worst (actually maybe not quite true as my wife does think they play up more around me from an attention perspective).
But we've shown with drink driving that you genuinely can shift public behaviours by criminalising things that were once seen as part of life. There will be some shitty edge cases where good lives get ruined - but that is kind of where we are whilst we tolerate smacking of young children.
the law probably does need to be tightened up tbf but its not realistic to say a child should have the same protection from 'assault' as a grown up. I have never hit my kids but I have in the past dragged my son out of places with him hitting me and screaming (he had massive tantrums as a toddler) and I have physically put both of my kids back on the naughty step (or into bed) when they have got off it and done so the in the face of some resistance from them.
I have a lot of sympathy for parents who have smacked their kids in that sort of melt down scenario. I think if I was a physically smaller person I might very well have done.
I am inclined to agree that there should be an absolute ban on corporal punishment (i.e. pain being deliberately inflicted after the event as a punishment). It's not going to always be easy to draw clear lines but I do think as a concept that ought to be clearly marked out as unacceptable.
It's why we're so tolerant of nurses punching dementia patients, not ideal care but those doddering old duffers are exhausting and need a slap to get them moving sometimes, everyone understands that losing your temper and physically abusing someone much much weaker than you is completely justified because reasons
sumo, there are plenty of awful things (legal and otherwise) that people choose to do every day despite knowing that it could hurt another person, maybe even someone they love. When those are CHOICES it is easy to condemn them. Despite knowing that everyone is fallible, we do that for the good of society.
When they are not choices personally I think it is more difficult.
children react to be raised well and having routine, if you are not a great parent for whatever reason (i.e. through no fault of your own you have no support network, you are poorly prepared, your state of residence treats kids with utter contempt and as disposable backdrops at best) then you will have "naughty" kids
but that failure does not give anyone a green light to just whack a kid to make up for past mistakes in how the kid has developed
Tbf you never really know if you would hit a child until they run at you full tilt and headbutt you in the balsac. Or playfully jab you with an epipen. Or reverse headbutt you right in the balsac.
Or break your nose by throwing you an aerobie or give you the norovirus they have taken home from school or hit you in the balsac with a rugby ball or plunked your plunked with a petanque
I think every person on this thread saying the idea of ever ever ever smacking a child under any circumstances is abhorrent and automatically makes someone a terrible parent should have to declare how many children they have and how old they are
just to close this one down - Brendon O'Neill has just wrote a defence of smacking in Spiked claiming it's an act of love. He also confides he was regularly smacked as a child and it made him the man he is today.
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it is fooking ridiculous
by all means discourage/socially shame it
but criminalising an exhausted parent because their kid is being a complete aunt is insanity
"mummy why can't I have any Christmas presents?"
"because you were being an arsehole in Morrisons and the SNP Gestapo saw"
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also, the relationship between less smacking and children being increasingly worse cannot be merely coicidental
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HOW ON EARTH WILL THEY GET THEIR CHILDREN TO UNDERSTAND ANYTHING?!?
ITS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS... GONE MAD!!!
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I AM PROUD TO SAY I WOULD HIT A SMALL CHILD
AND IF THAT DIDN’T WORK, I’D KEEP ON HITTING IT UNTIL IT DID: THEY SOON GET THE MESSAGE!
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Yeah well
If someone's mum loses their job for smacking them I don't think they'll be better off
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Clergs were u smacked?
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Yeah and I don't have kids obv so I don't actually know if I would do it myself but what I do know is that many of my friends in a state of deranged exhaustion have smacked their children and the idea of criminalising that is fooking idiotic
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They're closer to animals than humans and the idea that everything about adult child interaction must be rational is fooking preposterous
And that's leaving aside the intelligence of the average person/parent, which is not high
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IT WILL NEVER WORK: JUST LOOK AT SWEDEN!
THEY BANNED SMACKING AND I THINK THAT TELLS YOU EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW
WE NEED TO KEEP ON HITTING CHILDREN
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Scotland to ban smacking whales you say?
I agree with this anyway, I don't see how anyone could hit a child. Children are so nice, even when they're being unbearable.
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Clergs - replace kids with wife and see how that logic then looks.
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You have a daughter tho don't you laz? And a nanny. My friends with boys (and no help), I think it's a miracle they haven't just abandoned them in the nest.
It's not about smacking being ideal child rearing, it's about understanding the reality of parenting for some people.
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Coracle, that's just sexist and idiotic. Children are not analogous to women. They are less formed than pigs below a certain age.
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“I don't have kids obv so I don't actually know if I would do it myself”
I HAVE ABSOLUTE FAITH THAT YOU WOULD REGULARLY HIT THEM AND THEY WOULD SOON LEARN THAT IF THEY DON’T DO WHAT MUMMY WANTS THEN MUMMY IS GOING TO HIT THEM UNTIL THEY DO
AND WE SHOULDN’T BE DISCOURAGING THIS: DISCIPLINE IS VERY IMPORTANT!
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what cozzalozza said
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For someone who doesn't have kids, you certainly think you know a lot about their development.
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that came out harsher than it sounded in my head
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Why would anyone deprive Scottish children of smack?
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Let's be honest,laz, you spend only marginally more time functionally child rearing than I do.
I don't think erring on the side of compassion for people with hard lives is some mad irrational take. I mean frankly I don't hugely care if children all get taken into care because of stasi-like misunderstandings but others might.
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“replace kids with wife and see how that logic then looks”
YES?
AND??
ARE YOU GOING TO FINISH THE POINT YOU WERE MAKING (WHATEVER IT IS)???
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I know, meh, it's inhuman.
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I was much more trouble than my brother was and got smacked far more often.
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I can see your point to the extent that the reasons people hit their kids are sometimes understandable at a human level, but so are the reasons people drink and drive. Making something criminal is not the same as saying it is unforgivable.
I spend enormous amounts of time looking after my kids.
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It is unfair to generalise but I understand the consensus is that boys won't rationalise and more often need to be punished.
Sounds a fooking nightmare anyway. I'd rather have been smacked than that ridiculous naughty step farrago.
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My elder daughter is easily as much of a PITA as my friends' sons btw. My younger hasn't had the chance yet but I can tell she's planning sthg.
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It's not about forgiveness, it's about pragmatism. If a teacher is criminalised for smacking her child she will lose her job and the family will lose that income.
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BUT YES, REAL COMPASSION IS LETTING THE CHILD BE HIT, NOT STOPPING THE CHILD FROM BEING HIT
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she'd better not do it, then
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And where do the respective parties stand on the issue of corporal punishment in schools?
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I want the next Rebus to be about the hunt for a random Edinburgh nutter who beats children and then shags a really old person. (Not rebus, obv, he has heart issues.)
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Well, a teacher is less likely to be bitten by a pupil at 2am after a week of no sleep so
Probably less of a difficult area?
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HE'S NOT OLD
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He's just festively saggy
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Laz mazel tov on the kidding. Didn't know you were a dad.
Hope it's going great. Hugs to Mrs Laz
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He's very firm so there
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No, teachers just have to deal with the fallout of whatever half arsed parenting is being applied inconsistently. So that’s all right then. Good-o.
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Those in favour of smacking always pitch this as a "light tap" or "a useful option to help discipline an unruly child" and say things like "it never did me any harm".
Those against are usually those who were beaten and brutalised as a child, and there are a LOT more of them than you think.
I would advocate a sensible compromise that in order to do this, you must obtain a "smacker's permit" which enables you to administer 5 light smacks per permit. And to obtain a permit, you need to be publicly flogged with a shit-dipped cat-o-9-tails.
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You’d still get plenty of takers.
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Can I "lightly smack" a truculent trainee who doesn't prioritise my work? Why is it illegal to assault someone of my own size but it's fine to beat a small child?
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The arguments that it was within a man's right to discipline his wife were trotted out in much the same way as Clergs now seeks to defend those hitting children. Before that the same arguments were used to justify beating servants and before that slaves.
With time people have come to accept all those were wrong and with time people will look back with bemusement at how we could be so cruel as to hit our children.
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fooks me off when you see parents outside of school screaming at kids because they're late and the kid is being slow.
The kid is too young to tell the time. You as the parent are in charge. Get up fooking earlier and don't be so rushed and stressy. You know kids are in the clouds, sort your fooking schedule out and don't take it out on the kids
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I was smacked loads as a child (at least twice a day). She broke my finger with a frying pan - though I deserved that tbf
Thing is my mum seems so nice now, can't imagine her doing it.
It was a fooking stupid thing for her to do as it didn't make a blind bit of difference
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What had you done to merit the broken finger??
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I don't think a child can do anything that merits a parent hitting them with a frying pan to break their finger. Clergham, the fact that you think they can, speaks volumes.
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Did she also go at the feet Bammo, this could explain a lot of unanswered questions
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She only does it for attention jelly
Ironic on a thread like this, obvs.
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Bam has notoriously delicate bones in his appendages (heh) though.
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Oh, I know. The deliberate contrarian is often funny, but I don't see the funny side here. Maybe she just wasn't beaten hard enough as a child.
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“Why is it illegal to assault someone of my own size but it's fine to beat a small child?”
WELL YOU OWN THE CHILD: ITS YOUR PROPERTY SO ITS UP TO YOU IF YOU WANT TO HIT IT
NOT TERRIBLY HARD TO UNDERSTAND THE DISTINCTION I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT
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I am also musing on the logistics of a frying pan as a finger breaker. It does seem as more of a facial assault weapon a la Vic and Bob. Using the flat side to break a finger rather than bruise it would take incredible force. She must have used the side in a downward swipe - a le crusset would certainly break a small child's digit is applied thus.
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Maybe once we leave the EU we can re-legalise slavery and then I can feel powerful and in control by beating lots more people.
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I would expect it was used on his arse, and the hand was used defensively - with the finger broken inadvertently.
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The knowing it’s not funny and still doing it is part of the pathology tho. All attention is good attention, never miss an opportunity to shout at the haters etc.
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Presumably he tried to fend off the blow from his head
?@jelly he SAID he deserved it ya contrarian
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And the joking about bam is in gross poor taste.
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he said "thought I deserved it". Past tense. In any case, a good many victims of abuse consider that their abuser was driven to do it. Even years later, the guilt can make this belief unshakable.
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No it was funny. I was 16, girlfriend missed period, told mum I was having a kid, she was holding a frying pan and went to hit me, it hit my hand.
Next day girlfriend came on her period
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hilarious!
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My dad almost shat himself laughing the next day.
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So the next time [insert name of randomly offending person] is late, they should just ask their partners mum to hit them with a frying pan?
tbf I’d pay to see that.
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And I wore a condom
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bam I cannot make further attempts at amusing comments because someone who wasn't there and doesn't know if it really happened has become OUTRAGED ON THE INTERNET.
I am sure the daily mail and the CIA will shortly be doorstepping your old dear
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Poor yung bam
I think it's notable that the people most likely to be aggro on this topic are also the most likely to have actually hit someone. I cannot imagine bam ever hits people (except with sweet legal pwns).
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It did really happen. I'm sure ive mentioned it on here before.
I thought I'd tell my mum when she was cooking because she's relaxed when cooking but didn't account for her being in the vicinity of weapons.
All my mates from school/ our block were Ghanaian or Nigerian or mixed race and compared to some of the punishments they got from their mums I got off really lightly.
It was all just seen as being really funny. Whose mum was the most vicious
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I must say that I was always a bit meh on this topic prior to having kids - clergs was like you thinking oh well there are times when I understand. Now I have them I’m actually much more clear that under no circumstances should you be hitting your kid. It’s a total loss of control as a parent and it’s utterly unacceptable.
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I know that some people believe your mum being mad strict is a sign of how much she loves you.
There is probably a happy medium TBF.
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I amon board with it being unacceptable, TC,I just don't think good parents would ever do it out of choice (ie it's an automatic response when rational thought is impossible) so I struggle with the idea of a response that effectively punishes the entire family for the long term.
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If she wasn't strict I'd either be a user or working in a mobile phone shop.
All power to her. I'm fooking minted
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Envyheh
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I found being locked in my room rather more traumatic than the odd smack.
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When you say room, do you really mean cabin?
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what toronnto said
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I think people who can in cold blood meet out physical punishment to children (or anyone) are psychopaths and should be in prison
most parents either have or have felt tempted to smack a toddler who is getting on your last nerve.
Its a sub optimal loss of control but the former is infinitely worse
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I agree nowadays. Could never in a million years imagine hitting one of my kids (I'd break a bone)
However not going to judge my mum about it. She was surrounded by parents did the same, I was probably a little aunt, she had to protect my childhood from loads of bad stuff and she had the stress of us losing our flat and being dead poor.
In my life clouds are candy floss and time is plentiful. I'm not going to judge her and certainly not going to call her a psycho.
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Whilst I wouldn't have said I was anti-smacking pre-children, I can't imagine ever hitting them.
I have a lot of sympathy for Clergs' view - I'm in a very privileged position and am the part time parent so don't as a whole have to deal with them at their worst (actually maybe not quite true as my wife does think they play up more around me from an attention perspective).
But we've shown with drink driving that you genuinely can shift public behaviours by criminalising things that were once seen as part of life. There will be some shitty edge cases where good lives get ruined - but that is kind of where we are whilst we tolerate smacking of young children.
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I didn't mean your mum bam
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Or - what Bam said but with a nicer albeit still slightly smack-y upbringing.
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I meant someone who does the whole wait till your father gets home when he then administers a thrashing
Like corporal punishment was at school (which is why it was so awful)
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I know you weren't. I am though less quick to condemn. Some people have it hard
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Clergs - replace kids with puchbag and see how that logic then looks.
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Yeah that is mental Linda. Indont get that
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I CAN ASSURE YOU ITS FOR THEIR OWN GOOD
AND, IF ANYTHING, IT HURTS THEM LESS THAN IT HURTS ME
IT REALLY DOES.
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you can still deep fry them though, right?
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the law probably does need to be tightened up tbf but its not realistic to say a child should have the same protection from 'assault' as a grown up. I have never hit my kids but I have in the past dragged my son out of places with him hitting me and screaming (he had massive tantrums as a toddler) and I have physically put both of my kids back on the naughty step (or into bed) when they have got off it and done so the in the face of some resistance from them.
I have a lot of sympathy for parents who have smacked their kids in that sort of melt down scenario. I think if I was a physically smaller person I might very well have done.
I am inclined to agree that there should be an absolute ban on corporal punishment (i.e. pain being deliberately inflicted after the event as a punishment). It's not going to always be easy to draw clear lines but I do think as a concept that ought to be clearly marked out as unacceptable.
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Rhamnousia 03 Oct 19 12:52
It's not about smacking being ideal child rearing, it's about understanding the reality of parenting for some people.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Absolutely
It's why we're so tolerant of nurses punching dementia patients, not ideal care but those doddering old duffers are exhausting and need a slap to get them moving sometimes, everyone understands that losing your temper and physically abusing someone much much weaker than you is completely justified because reasons
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And in addition to reasons, it's about sovereignty and taking back losing control.
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yeah but we don't leave one nurse to look after a dementia patient 24/7/365 for years at a time...
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sumo, there are plenty of awful things (legal and otherwise) that people choose to do every day despite knowing that it could hurt another person, maybe even someone they love. When those are CHOICES it is easy to condemn them. Despite knowing that everyone is fallible, we do that for the good of society.
When they are not choices personally I think it is more difficult.
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it is a choice to punch or not punch a baby
children react to be raised well and having routine, if you are not a great parent for whatever reason (i.e. through no fault of your own you have no support network, you are poorly prepared, your state of residence treats kids with utter contempt and as disposable backdrops at best) then you will have "naughty" kids
but that failure does not give anyone a green light to just whack a kid to make up for past mistakes in how the kid has developed
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Tbf you never really know if you would hit a child until they run at you full tilt and headbutt you in the balsac. Or playfully jab you with an epipen. Or reverse headbutt you right in the balsac.
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Or break your nose by throwing you an aerobie or give you the norovirus they have taken home from school or hit you in the balsac with a rugby ball or plunked your plunked with a petanque
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Children are fundamentally evil. They're basically like hairless cats with thumbs.
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they are just humans who haven't learned to hide it yet I reckon
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I think every person on this thread saying the idea of ever ever ever smacking a child under any circumstances is abhorrent and automatically makes someone a terrible parent should have to declare how many children they have and how old they are
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can we also add and if they are sure they have never ever done anything hurtful towards their families?
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Surprised Wang can have any more children given the beating his sensitive parts seem to have taken from his existing offspring.
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thwak
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"Scotland to ban the smacking of children"
How will clergs find another hobbie
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just to close this one down - Brendon O'Neill has just wrote a defence of smacking in Spiked claiming it's an act of love. He also confides he was regularly smacked as a child and it made him the man he is today.
The prosecution rests.
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