I can't even begin to understand why anyone would care enough about the concept of gender, and therefore transgenderedness, to bother having an opinion about it.
We should scrap trident, replace it with a nuclear capable cruise system which we already own and put the saved money into building social housing which needs to remain immune from right to buy.
The language used against trans people is word-for-word identical to the thoughtless prejudice that was used to exclude gay men from public spaces for decades.
I realise of course that homosexual acts were illegal until the 60s and that gay people suffered horrendous prejudice if they came out until much more recent times (and quite possibly still do) but are you seriously suggesting that say Oscar Wilde wouldn't have been allowed in his local library?
Sorry Mr Wilde, but we can't have you flouncing in the crime fiction section
Focusing stop and search on young black men is a good thing because they're the ones going around offing each other in record numbers with guns and knives
pancake, can you give some examples of how it is word for word identical?
I don't recall anyone saying "please don't let male bodied sex offenders into women's prisons, leaving them free to carry out an additional four attacks on vulnerable women" for example, but perhaps I missed it...
There's a bit of a difference between saying gays shouldn't have sex because it's immoral and saying you think it's a bit wrong letting someone who is in all respects male into the ladies changing room at the pool because he says he thinks he's a woman.
If they bring in this self-identifying law I'm totally claiming to be Jane every now and then so I can go and perv in the ladies showers at the gym and stroll around with my male bits out and a long wig on.
In my early 20s I was flashed at by a perv in a swimming pool. I pointed it out to the lifeguard and the perv scuttled off to the changing room. I was genuinely scared leaving the baths that he would be out there waiting for me and apprehensive on subsequent visits. This was a man getting kicks from showing off his pen1s to women. Under the changes proposed, he could just call himself Beryl every second Tuesday and parade his c0ck around the ladies' changing room for kicks. I do not want to be exposed to that, and I certainly do not want my 4 year old daughter to be.
pancake, can you give some examples of how it is word for word identical?
Exhibit A:
If they bring in this self-identifying law I'm totally claiming to be Jane every now and then so I can go and perv in the ladies showers at the gym and stroll around with my male bits out and a long wig on.
Oh good, now we're into full-on trans people are all just ogling perverts like gay people were all basically potential paedos so needed to be kept away from kids territory.
I don’t think we are, pancakes. I think Sails and Nexis are pointing out the risk of ogling perverts pretending to be trans. I don’t think it’s transphobic to have a problem with perverts.
Well 41% of trans prisoners are convicted sex offenders, so you might have a point, but that wasn't the one I was making.
Almost all societies in the world segregate by sex (note sex, not gender), particularly when people are sleeping or in a state of undress. Why do you think that is?
Pancake no issue with men who have had gender reassignment using ladies facilities. I'm just merely pointing out that it's ridiculous that I could turn up to the pool, announce I self-identify as a woman with no extraneous evidence and then use the ladies facilities.
I assure you there are plenty of teenage boys at mixed boarding schools who will use this to get themselves moved into a girls' dormitory for a couple of weeks ogling before deciding that in fact they do identify as male. We spent years at school looking for just such an excuse to get into the girls' dormitories.
Similarly, I have no issue (and a great deal of sympathy) for those that have felt the need to go through gender reassignment. I vehemently oppose self-ID.
I also think it's shit and creepy that men who call themselves women are allowed to be guide and brownie leaders.
No one is saying trans people are all sex offenders but if you're obsessed with genitals and making women uncomfortable it's a great community to hide among.
And ofc all arguments for equality of the sexes are undone by the notion that man or woman have emotional and behavioural defining features.
I also think genuine trans people would benefit more from the affirmation that it's fine to be gender non conforming rather than the bizarre pretence that they actually are the sex they believe their gender identity aligns with.
Surely the answer here is just to have a non gender specific changing area with private booths that you go into, like the toilets in ally mcbeal and no open nudity area.
cor this whole trans thing worries me for a few reasons
1. as a result of the fantastically positive culture of trying to be more understanding of humanity in all its shapes and forms b we have in fact started labelling people more and more rather than seeing everyone as a an individual
2. Transgenderism can (not always) have a tendency towards sexism as it starts to predefine genders in an unhelpful way i.e. the way i exist cannot fit within the definition of "male" so I must be "female"
3. It makes it difficult for people to discuss other issues that might be involved e.g. mental health issues, unhappiness, a lack of acceptance that is trying tob e remedied through the adoption of being a "new person"
I dont know enough to talk about this at length and should say I think everyone should be able to dress and be however they want to be and do whatever they want to their own body - what I find uncomfortable is that unlike building an understanding of e.g. homosexuality, or bisexuality, which allows people to be who they are...I too often feel like transgenderism tells people that who they currently are is not right and so they should be someone else - it feels uncomforable to me in some way. I hope people understand I am concerned with the semantics and the way we talk about this rather than what people decide to get up to with their lives.
I really hope that all the obvious transphobes on this thread will be more sympathetic if one of their nearest and dearest believes themselves to need to make such a transition.
Agree with most people re trans - Nexis, Archibald etc.
I agree in principle that gender reassignment and people who go through with that kind of serious stuff all the way should be supported, but those who are physically male shouldn't be able to just call themselves Jane and use the women's changing rooms
But there are still execution issues and practicalities - how do you make the decision between the two?
That is to say, what is a swimming pool attendant to do on a day to day basis? Ask for government issued ID from everyone proving that they are the right sex for the dressing room they are going into? Ask only if he thinks it is "suspicious"? That is, someone who might possibly look a bit male trying to go into the wrong changing rooms? But that's so incredibly subjective..
When I lived in Forest Hill briefly (before escaping back North of the river), the (excellent) council gym and swimming pool had this policy.
There are separate toilets (query who gets to use those!) but the main changing area (including the pre/post swim showers) is unisex, with unisex changing rooms and lockers.
It works pretty well although it was weird at first. Unlike the usual men's changing rooms, you obviously can't strip off completely in the showers, but other than that..
Except for the unemployed or seriously poor, there should be a small charge for routine GP appointments. and there should be parking style fines for people who don't turn up to GP appointments.
I don't think your annoyance with the fraud thing is an unpopular point TBH m6. I see so many people ticking 'k' and then running off to a builders van while i am getting my prescriptions. I pay a lot, I'm on lots of drugs, but I have this annual thing which makes it quite a lot cheaper. But still, I hope they get caught and shamed.
If they bring in this self-identifying law I'm totally claiming to be Jane every now and then so I can go and perv in the ladies showers at the gym and stroll around with my male bits out and a long wig on.
Amateur.
I'd do it to be able to claim my pension and retire earlier.
i've seen Widdicomb (J not A) on his live tour. he is the very embodiment of "heh". an entirely pleasant evening of "heh" but not a single belly laugh.
as an aside, I got one of those foot long lips n rsoles frankfurter sausagez inna bun, slathered it in red and lumi yellow sauce and went to bit into it as his warm up act began (rosheen connerty i think, spelling ignored). the sausage shot out of the end of the bun and landed in my crotch, slathering it with reddy yellow goo and making it look like I was committing a public indecency offence.
A bloke in a dress casting spells to enter safe spaces yesterday. Note the sickle he intends to use to slit the throats of every single person in the building and the bowl into which he will drain their blood to make black pudding.
Don't really get your point but transwomen are men and men are excluded from women's spaces for a reason. Men who identify as women are likely to be at the madder end of the male spectrum too (in my opinion).
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Transwomen are men
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Interesting points so far (disapointing that Newsnight hasn't descended into a full on brawl so far clergs)
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Good
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That's the polite way of saying the same thing
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I can't even begin to understand why anyone would care enough about the concept of gender, and therefore transgenderedness, to bother having an opinion about it.
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Because the whole basis of feminism is predicated on gender criticism.
And single sex protections exist for a reason.
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All borders should be abolished
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They went bust years ago Supes
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20th Century classical music is terrible and Britten's ability to make my ears hurt is not a sign of musical genius.
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Woman = adult human female
Astoundingly, this is an unpopular and controversial view in certain quarters.
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We should scrap trident, replace it with a nuclear capable cruise system which we already own and put the saved money into building social housing which needs to remain immune from right to buy.
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The entire human race should be abolished.
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what Clergs said.
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labour party is now the communist party
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(BTW, if any of the gender critical on here have not yet filled in the government's consultation on trans reforms, today is the last day to do so.)
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The language used against trans people is word-for-word identical to the thoughtless prejudice that was used to exclude gay men from public spaces for decades.
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I realise of course that homosexual acts were illegal until the 60s and that gay people suffered horrendous prejudice if they came out until much more recent times (and quite possibly still do) but are you seriously suggesting that say Oscar Wilde wouldn't have been allowed in his local library?
Sorry Mr Wilde, but we can't have you flouncing in the crime fiction section
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I was pretty happy with the coalition government, Nick Clegg in particular.
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Focusing stop and search on young black men is a good thing because they're the ones going around offing each other in record numbers with guns and knives
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pancake, can you give some examples of how it is word for word identical?
I don't recall anyone saying "please don't let male bodied sex offenders into women's prisons, leaving them free to carry out an additional four attacks on vulnerable women" for example, but perhaps I missed it...
And wot wang sed.
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There's a bit of a difference between saying gays shouldn't have sex because it's immoral and saying you think it's a bit wrong letting someone who is in all respects male into the ladies changing room at the pool because he says he thinks he's a woman.
If they bring in this self-identifying law I'm totally claiming to be Jane every now and then so I can go and perv in the ladies showers at the gym and stroll around with my male bits out and a long wig on.
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The gay thing is ridiculous (perpetuated by the stonewall lunatics who have never liked women and find this an excellent opportunity to get stuck in )
Anyway saying a transwoman is a man is not transphobic
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In my early 20s I was flashed at by a perv in a swimming pool. I pointed it out to the lifeguard and the perv scuttled off to the changing room. I was genuinely scared leaving the baths that he would be out there waiting for me and apprehensive on subsequent visits. This was a man getting kicks from showing off his pen1s to women. Under the changes proposed, he could just call himself Beryl every second Tuesday and parade his c0ck around the ladies' changing room for kicks. I do not want to be exposed to that, and I certainly do not want my 4 year old daughter to be.
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pancake, can you give some examples of how it is word for word identical?
Exhibit A:
If they bring in this self-identifying law I'm totally claiming to be Jane every now and then so I can go and perv in the ladies showers at the gym and stroll around with my male bits out and a long wig on.
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Oh good, now we're into full-on trans people are all just ogling perverts like gay people were all basically potential paedos so needed to be kept away from kids territory.
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So when I take my little girl swimming should I be getting her changed in the women’s changing rooms to reduce the number of cocks she sees?
FAOD I’m fully clothed so I won’t be inflicting the sight of mine on anyone.
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I find the trans debate difficult and I don't think I understand the issues well enough to have a proper view
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I don’t think we are, pancakes. I think Sails and Nexis are pointing out the risk of ogling perverts pretending to be trans. I don’t think it’s transphobic to have a problem with perverts.
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Well 41% of trans prisoners are convicted sex offenders, so you might have a point, but that wasn't the one I was making.
Almost all societies in the world segregate by sex (note sex, not gender), particularly when people are sleeping or in a state of undress. Why do you think that is?
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Pumpkin, that's just not really true. Those "concerns" are just the mask the bigotry is dressed up in before it slips into this:
Well 41% of trans prisoners are convicted sex offenders, so you might have a point
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Pancake no issue with men who have had gender reassignment using ladies facilities. I'm just merely pointing out that it's ridiculous that I could turn up to the pool, announce I self-identify as a woman with no extraneous evidence and then use the ladies facilities.
I assure you there are plenty of teenage boys at mixed boarding schools who will use this to get themselves moved into a girls' dormitory for a couple of weeks ogling before deciding that in fact they do identify as male. We spent years at school looking for just such an excuse to get into the girls' dormitories.
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Similarly, I have no issue (and a great deal of sympathy) for those that have felt the need to go through gender reassignment. I vehemently oppose self-ID.
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I also think it's shit and creepy that men who call themselves women are allowed to be guide and brownie leaders.
No one is saying trans people are all sex offenders but if you're obsessed with genitals and making women uncomfortable it's a great community to hide among.
And ofc all arguments for equality of the sexes are undone by the notion that man or woman have emotional and behavioural defining features.
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I also think genuine trans people would benefit more from the affirmation that it's fine to be gender non conforming rather than the bizarre pretence that they actually are the sex they believe their gender identity aligns with.
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Surely the answer here is just to have a non gender specific changing area with private booths that you go into, like the toilets in ally mcbeal and no open nudity area.
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cor this whole trans thing worries me for a few reasons
1. as a result of the fantastically positive culture of trying to be more understanding of humanity in all its shapes and forms b we have in fact started labelling people more and more rather than seeing everyone as a an individual
2. Transgenderism can (not always) have a tendency towards sexism as it starts to predefine genders in an unhelpful way i.e. the way i exist cannot fit within the definition of "male" so I must be "female"
3. It makes it difficult for people to discuss other issues that might be involved e.g. mental health issues, unhappiness, a lack of acceptance that is trying tob e remedied through the adoption of being a "new person"
I dont know enough to talk about this at length and should say I think everyone should be able to dress and be however they want to be and do whatever they want to their own body - what I find uncomfortable is that unlike building an understanding of e.g. homosexuality, or bisexuality, which allows people to be who they are...I too often feel like transgenderism tells people that who they currently are is not right and so they should be someone else - it feels uncomforable to me in some way. I hope people understand I am concerned with the semantics and the way we talk about this rather than what people decide to get up to with their lives.
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Same
The difference between trans activism and historic gay rights is that gay rights activists never asked people to redefine themselves
(Also, trans therapy can effectively be seen as gay conversion therapy in some contexts)
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I really hope that all the obvious transphobes on this thread will be more sympathetic if one of their nearest and dearest believes themselves to need to make such a transition.
Shame on many of you.
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No such thing as transition for 90%
That's the point
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Agree with most people re trans - Nexis, Archibald etc.
I agree in principle that gender reassignment and people who go through with that kind of serious stuff all the way should be supported, but those who are physically male shouldn't be able to just call themselves Jane and use the women's changing rooms
But there are still execution issues and practicalities - how do you make the decision between the two?
That is to say, what is a swimming pool attendant to do on a day to day basis? Ask for government issued ID from everyone proving that they are the right sex for the dressing room they are going into? Ask only if he thinks it is "suspicious"? That is, someone who might possibly look a bit male trying to go into the wrong changing rooms? But that's so incredibly subjective..
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Gender neutral changing cubicles are the way forward. I could do this on apprentice or something, I'd make a bomb.
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When I lived in Forest Hill briefly (before escaping back North of the river), the (excellent) council gym and swimming pool had this policy.
There are separate toilets (query who gets to use those!) but the main changing area (including the pre/post swim showers) is unisex, with unisex changing rooms and lockers.
It works pretty well although it was weird at first. Unlike the usual men's changing rooms, you obviously can't strip off completely in the showers, but other than that..
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https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/10/problem-gender-self-id-designed-solve-real-debate-has-failed
Have youse seen this??? :-0@the redwoods!
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Except for the unemployed or seriously poor, there should be a small charge for routine GP appointments. and there should be parking style fines for people who don't turn up to GP appointments.
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the level of fraud in the NHS is a national disgrace
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I don't think your annoyance with the fraud thing is an unpopular point TBH m6. I see so many people ticking 'k' and then running off to a builders van while i am getting my prescriptions. I pay a lot, I'm on lots of drugs, but I have this annual thing which makes it quite a lot cheaper. But still, I hope they get caught and shamed.
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The Last Leg - as funny as my old 6th form politics lectures
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widdicombe can land the odd bit of wit but he's such a wet drip
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Lol at the Redwoods.
She doesn’t suggest any kind of solution but otherwise the article is spot on
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If they bring in this self-identifying law I'm totally claiming to be Jane every now and then so I can go and perv in the ladies showers at the gym and stroll around with my male bits out and a long wig on.
Amateur.
I'd do it to be able to claim my pension and retire earlier.
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i've seen Widdicomb (J not A) on his live tour. he is the very embodiment of "heh". an entirely pleasant evening of "heh" but not a single belly laugh.
as an aside, I got one of those foot long lips n rsoles frankfurter sausagez inna bun, slathered it in red and lumi yellow sauce and went to bit into it as his warm up act began (rosheen connerty i think, spelling ignored). the sausage shot out of the end of the bun and landed in my crotch, slathering it with reddy yellow goo and making it look like I was committing a public indecency offence.
still ate the sausage tbf
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Transpeople:
- curdle milk when they walk by
- worship Satan
- eat babies
- float on water
- fly on broomsticks
- have familiars
- feed the said familiars from secret marks hidden about their privities
- conjure the dead
- attend sabbats they call "support groups" where they worship the devil
- can transform themselves into the form of animals
- are succubi
- shrivel penises
- cause breastfeeding mothers milk to run dry and/or become poisonous
- weigh the same as a duck
- are against God and nature and can only be purified by a well stoked internet flaming and preferably being burned at the stake.
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A bloke in a dress casting spells to enter safe spaces yesterday. Note the sickle he intends to use to slit the throats of every single person in the building and the bowl into which he will drain their blood to make black pudding.
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Don't really get your point but transwomen are men and men are excluded from women's spaces for a reason. Men who identify as women are likely to be at the madder end of the male spectrum too (in my opinion).
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Heh
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