Panorama tonight

Corbyn supporters may want to have a good stiff drink before watching it at 9pm....

I look forward to the follow up programme on Tory islamophobia

Watched it, all a bit wish washy. I’m no fan of Corbyn but this is yet another in the catalogue of attack pieces on him. See the daily mail for more details 

you are comparing panorama to the daily mail. noted!

The programme showed that the root cause of labour's anti-Semitism is a complete inability by a large part of the labour membership (many who joined when Corbyn became leader) to see any shades of grey in the rights and wrongs of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Bovine chants of "free free Palestine" morph at light speed into anti Zionist prejudice, and then anti-Semitic tropes

it's also clear that corbyn himself has emboldened anti-semites in the labour party because of his track record of sharing platforms with anti-semites.

What diceman said 

magic grandpa may not be an actual anti Semite himself but it's very unfortunate how many of his friends are 

I follow a lot of leftie / socialist accounts on twitter and see retweets from many more. Twitter is an absolute state this morning of anti Semitic tropes as defence of labour in response to the documentary. Saying ball the usual bollocks like this is the work of dark forces/shadowy figures/conspiracy/follow the money/they're shilling for Israel etc etc. 

I wonder if these people can actually see themselves. 

Corbyn is on video saying Hamas shouldn't be a proscribed organisation.  They say Israel - the only Jewish nation in the world - should be destroyed.

He's liked and shared clearly antisemitic material online.

There are lots of other direct examples.

He is an antisemite, but like a lot of others in his movement, he is blinded by the logic that if you are left-wing you obviously can't be a racist.  And as well as being an antisemite himself, he has presided over an organisation which is institutionally antisemitic.

I have no doubt that the Tories are chocka with people who don't like Islam.  That's not relevant to whether Corbyn is an antisemite and Labour are institutionally antisemitic, which they are.

Oh yes the other knee jerk response on twitter today is you must be a Tory / the tories are full of islamaphobes

The programme was a disgrace. No interrogation of the sources, no questioning their motives, a healthy sprinkling of scare mongering "the party was infiltrated by Marxist hardliners" etc plus the fact it has now been revealed it took quotes / emails from Labour officials totally out of context.

There is literally zero proof of Corbyn being an antisemite, and given his history of standing against all forms of discrimination, i'd be extremely surprised if he is one.

Not that any of that matters to the alt right tedes on here clearly.

Is this performance art you're doing? I've been called a lot of things but alt-right is a new one 

I'm not certain how to respond to something that's clearly based on germs of truth and some real problems, but at this same time is also an absolutely massive hatchet job.

Because let's not kid ourselves, the problem of anti-semitism in the Labour party will (in terms of publicity) immediately vanish as soon as someone safer and more palatable to the media takes over the leadership. 

Is Wes Streeting alt-right?

is Stella Creesy?

what about Luciano Berger?

There is literally zero proof of Corbyn being an antisemite, and given his history of standing against all forms of discrimination, i'd be extremely surprised if he is one.

Fucks sake Wellers.  You didn't even respond to the examples I gave, but here are plenty of others showing he is an antisemite.

https://twitter.com/GnasherJew/status/1048866341472620544

Yes, he's campaigned against OTHER forms of racism, but is blinded by his position on Israel to the fact that he is an antisemite.

 

None of those three people appeared on this documentary, im confused how that is relevant tbh?

Because they are labour MPs deeply concerned by the level of AS in their party and concerned by the failure to tackle it. 

I just wondered who exactly counts as alt-right in your eyes given your comment above. Is criticising labour enough? 

There appear to have been very deliberate interference in the disciplinary process for certain people, if the leadership cared about them, and pressure was exerted to exonerate them or apply nominal sanction.  That's totally inconsistent with JC's stated position that the disciplinary process in the party is nothing to do with me guv

 

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-has-done-more-to-inflame-antisemitism-than-any-political-figure-since-second-world-war-1.486310

Heh @ wellers pretend socialist credentials

 

You can stop trolling now

Tbh I'm not defending Labour, just saying that Panorama's "documentary" was a shambolic attempt at journalism. It had the production values of something you'd see on the History Channel entitled "Did Hitler Fake the Moon Landings?" etc

Wasted opportunity to actually delve properly into an important issue

One of the examples given in the documentary about Magic Grandpa's anti-Semitism related to I think 2 Egyptian soldier or guards being killed by what the Egyptian authorities called al Qaeda terrorist action. Magic Grandpa was filmed on a middle eastern TV network saying that it wouldn't be that it would instead be related to Israel. 

What are your thoughts on that Wellington?

Linda that's a porky pie I've called you alt-right lots of times becoz u r a TERF.

was it you that got chucked out of the national theatre cafe the other day?

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Everything is safe.  This area has already been secured by Shami Chakrabarti.

What are your thoughts on that Wellington?

Well what he said is that he was very surprised that Muslims would attack other Muslims, especially during Ramadan, and questioned whether Israel might have had a hand in the attack given their history of destabilising the region for political gains. This happened in 2012, in 2011 Israel openly admitted to murdering three Egyptian border guards.

So remind me, in what way is this antisemitic?

 

After Egypt had already said they knew it was Islamist jihadis?

he knew better?

Egypt in the midst of the Egyptian Crisis? The country was a total mess.

Besides, he was offering an opinion one, and a perfectly valid one given Israel's documented behaviour in the region.

As usual, you are dodging the question. In what way is what he said antisemitic? 

 

So Jeremy Corbyn understands better than the Egyptian security forces who attacked them. Righto 

your trolling about subjects that don't affect you and you don't care about for laughs/boredom/attention is childish. You've done it for years. Stop it 

hotnow" you are deeply tiresome. Hush

im getting really tired of cisgendered heteronormative middle class white women telling me I'm not allowed to speak or trying to speak over me

Because the Egyptian authorities were calling it totally differently based on the evidence they had found 

but that wasn't good enough for Magic Grandpa, no it must be Israel and he felt compelled to say that on telly when he didn't have to 

The way in which Corbyn and his people are dealing with this is demonstrating why they unfit to hold any sort of power.  They are exactly the sort of people that would have their opponents Disappear into the back of a van at night for saying the Wrong Things. 

So Jeremy Corbyn understands better than the Egyptian security forces who attacked them. Righto

So you think everything that comes out of the Egyptian authorities / security forces via State TV is correct? Righto 

Why isn't he allowed to offer an opinion? Given that Israel have a proven history of murdering Egyptian guards, is it not a valid opinion to suspect they might have been involved in a more recent attack?

Finally, stop avoiding the question, in what way was it antisemitic?

I'm not cisgendered hotnow. And terf is a slur 

stop using hate speech

 

fun this woke lingo bingo nonsense isn't it 

I love the Islamaphobia accusations from Labour types. Which generates two responses:

1.  There is no such thing as Islamaphobia, as the Commission looking into its definition has conceded.  A phobia by necessity implies an irrational aversion, whilst the aversion of many is entirely rational.

2.  Oh, so Labour supports Islam and its radical proponents, does it?  Because that's so much better than supporting Israel.

Cis gendered means your gender identity accords with your biological sex. I don't have a gender identity because it's bollocks. Hence I cannot be cis. 

Almost 50% of tory membership say they would not accept a Muslim PM   The Tory party is piled high with racists.   Why are we not talking about that?

Labour has a problem with Israel - this has split over into anti-Semitism and is utterly unacceptable but I would be very surprised indeed if any more than a tiny minority of Labour members would not accept a jewish prime minister.

Channel 4 had a dispatches programme which covered amongst other things Tory racism. You can start a thread about it.

 

whataboutery isn't becoming 

Seriously "the tories are racist"

I KNOW

thars why I want the Labour Party to be something I can fucking vote for fgs 

Well what he said is that he was very surprised that Muslims would attack other Muslims, especially during Ramadan

 

Lol. This is precisely when I would expect Muslims to attack other Muslims. Muslims are far the biggest victims of Muslim terrorists and Ramadan is very often a bloodbath. 

It is about perspective and proportion - I repeat almost FIFTY PERCENT of Tory members would not accept a muslim prime minister.     Lets poll the Labour membership and see how many would accept a Jewish PM and find out which party has the bigger problem.   Yet which is the media  focussing on?

 

Linda, there are very few genuine anti semites in the Labour party, there are a lot of people that oppose the Isreali state but that is something different.  I entirely agree that the small minority of genuine anti-semites should be thrown out tout suite but if we are going to discuss racism in our political parties it is utterly wrong that it is anti-Semitism in the Labour party that is dominating the media focus.   One has to ask why this might be?

linda there may be the odd documentary about it - but not day after day of news headlines.

Is it due to a shadowy conspiracy of powerful and well connected people by any chance? Ones with a long history of influence in media, finance and the arts?

 

Linda nice to see extremist ideology in action you must work very hard to pretend to yourself that you aren't a woman but just coincidentally come on here talking about wimmins ishoos and coincidentally taking a woman's perspective in every case.

If you will only accept someone is a "genuine anti Semite" if they tweet that Jews should be gassed and Israel can get in the sea then yes there are very few "genuine anti Semites" in the Labour Party. 

Thats not what it is tho. And ironically we are back to the refusal by labour to adopt the IHRA meaning of anti semitism. 

Dude I am a biological woman. You either have no idea what the issues you are bleating about actually are, or you're trolling. In either event I'm not here to educate you. I suggest google. 

No, it is not a shadowy conspiracy it is a fairly open conspiracy amongst the media and establishment to ensure Corbyn never becomes PM

Linda, lets take as a base somebody who would not support a jewish PM as an anti semite, as I am taking that as a rough shorthand for an islamophobe in the Tory party.

You are a biological woman who thinks like a woman and experiences life as a woman. If you can explain to me how that isn't relevant to how you act then go ahead I'm all ears. Gender critical theory is BS of the highest order. 

Judaism and Islam are religions, not races, so disparaging their adherents isn't racism, retards, it's religious hatred.  Still a crime, but Jesus, get your terminology right before you start flinging labels at each other.  You're just making yourselves look silly.

whatever -what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

"retards"

"Flinging labels at each other"

 

:-/

 

Tongue firmly in cheek, Hools, seeing as you need this spelling out.

It's clear now. Israel can murder as many innocent people as it wishes but in Linda's opinion any criticism of them at all is antisemitism.

At least we all know where we stand on this.

Fuck off wellington. Fuck you and your trolling tedious shit opinions. 

1.  Disapproval of Israel's actions does not make you anti Semitic.

2.  Support for Palestein does not make you pro-Islam.

3.  Support for people who advocate the forceful dismantling of Israel, often using hate speech, makes you anti Semitic and a supporter of terrorism.

 

Claro?  

You do realise it looks pretty weak and offensive to come on to a thread about Labour's anti-semitism problem and complain about perceived Tory problem with Islamophobia don't you.

Have you forgotten that Sajid Javid and his colleagues agreed to hold an enquiry into the Tory party?

Did Guy Crouchback really imply a jewish led conspiracy to stop Corbyn being PM!?!

 

Even for the dullcunt that is Guy that is astounding. 

 

 

Lolz, would you accept that not accepting a muslim PM is islamophobic?  Of course you would.  That is nearly HALF the entire party BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION.  And unlike the anti-Semitism issue there is no grey area between being anti the policies of a particular country and anti an entire religion, it is cold hard prejudice. 

The Labour party has its problems but they pale into insignificance compared to the Tory party - so yes while the media demonstrates its barely believable bias I will continue to shout about it.

*reads post for denial*

*notes no denial*

 

LOOK OVER THERE NOT OVER HERE etc... 

 

 

 

When did Hoolie become such a rabid Zionist?! Oh hang on, isn't she shagging that Jewish fella now?

Did Guy Crouchback really imply a jewish led conspiracy to stop Corbyn being PM!?!

No I did not - where did I imply anything about "jewish led"?  the conspiracy is not based on race or religion it is based on wanting to protect established interests that Corbyn may threaten - power and money.

 

I don't think it's a "conspiracy". There's a massive Jewish lobby which is openly anti-Corbyn.

The Tories definitely have the high moral ground on this.

It's not as if they're holding onto power solely with the support of a party, 90% of whose MPs are members of a openly sectarian organisation (its not 100% simply because their sole female MPs can't join. Because she's a woman).

FGS WHY CANT THEY BOTH BE EVIL

its not pick a team. A plague on both their houses 

That is naïve Linda, you must understand that this anti-Semitism stuff is really about trying to get rid of Corbyn.   

There may be pockets of anti-Semitism in the Labour party, much will depend on whether you consider being anti-Israel anti-Semitic and yes certain people should be kicked out,  but it does not compare to half the party membership being openly prejudiced as is the case with the Tory party, it is not in the same ball park, it is not in the same fvcking universe.   If we are going to spotlight racism/religious prejudice in our political parties -it is quite clearly the tory party where we should be concentrating.     Yet day after day the mainstream media focus on anti Semitism in the Labour party.  It is amazingly how easily people are manipulated.

Step 1. Dismiss the issue. 

"this anti-Semitism stuff is really about trying to get rid of Corbyn.   " 

Step 2. Say that something else is much worse. 

"it is quite clearly the tory party where we should be concentrating"

Step 3. blame the mainstream media. 

"et day after day the mainstream media focus on anti Semitism in the Labour party.  It is amazingly how easily people are manipulated."

 

Does Momentum do training days on this stuff? 

 

No I don't have to understand anything of the sort. Do one with your patronising crap  

I am not voting Tory or labour and can see no current circs in which I would (and I have at various stages been a member of both parties and god help me voted for JC as leader. How I regret that)

Why can't you get this into your thick head guy? I WANT TO VOTE LABOUR BUT THEY CURRENTLY DISGUST ME

i know the tories are awful that's why labour being unelectable is so upsetting 

I doubt if "anti-Semitism" is any more widespread in Labour than the population at large tbf.

Linda is almost the only one talking any sense here and who's comments are not offensive.

 

Whataboutery - there may be Tory Islamaphobes but this was a different subject. And the Tory leadership is not itself anti Muslim or promoting Islamaphobes or stopping them being slung out of the party.

 

You can criticise Israel but those of you who do, generally don't criticise anyone else for similar or worse crimes. And then any issue or complaint of antisemitism is linked to Israel. And that's antisemitic

Does Momentum do training days on this stuff? 

Probably but not for me, I am on the verge of leaving the Labour party over their Brexit stance.  I voted lib dem in the euros and will probably do so again in the forthcoming general election.  Corbyn is a busted flush and its time he was off - doesn't mean I don't get angry when the establishment is able to manipulate the news agenda the way it does.

"And the Tory leadership is not itself anti Muslim or promoting Islamaphobes or stopping them being slung out of the party."

They are not "stopping them" getting slung out of the party because nobody is slinging them out of the party - a dying party like the Tories cannot afford to lose the half of its membership that admits to being prejudiced

Dux I am not "shagging that Jewish chap" my partner is Jewish and we love together and have been in a relationship for years. How fucking dare you call me a "Zionist" because anti semitism disgusts me. 

How dare you suggest my views are due to who I am "shagging" and not basic humanity  

Do you even get that conflation of jews with Israel / Zionism IS anti Semitic? You can't be this stupid so I can only conclude you are being deliberately offensive. 

In the decade you posted on here previously, I don't recall you ever mentioning Israel/the Middle East, let alone having a strong view on it.

"That is naïve Linda, you must understand that this anti-Semitism stuff is really about trying to get rid of Corbyn."

You are either a moron or antisemitic. 

I have not been on rof for a decade 

the Labour Party wasn't openly anti Semitic until recently so funnily it didn't crop up

Could you just try to see how deeply offensive you are and desist k thnx 

So what if she has developed her views more recently? It doesn't make the Labour Party any less offensive to people with some decent principles.

I personally think that the fact that Corybn has let this develop in the way it has over years and failed to deal with it shows how unsuited to leadership he is. 

Imagine if we had a proper opposition party dealing with Brexit issues... 

imagine. 

 

“The Labour Party wasn’t openly anti-Semitic until recently.” Apart from when they said the Boer War was a Jewish capitalist conspiracy. So, right from get go.

As it happens I don't understand anti-Semitism at all, it simply doesn't occur to me to view Jewish people any differently from anyone else save to acknowledge that they have as a group suffered more than most.

 

I am not justifying anti-Semitism in the Labour party or anywhere else I am saying the issue is getting huge media spotlight out of all proportion to attention paid to prejudice elsewhere because there are so many vested interests in getting rid of Corbyn and his crew (including within the party) and this is a way to do so.

And I say that as somebody who wants Corbyn out myself.

But it is not disproportionate to the amount of AS there is. Most Jewish people are feeling really threatened for the first time in their lives. If you look at the comments thrown at anyone calling out AS in the Labour Party it is horrific the level of abuse and vitriol people are getting. I have never seen that in my lifetime and I am in my 50s.

 

It gets more attention because there is more of it. Simple as that and it comes from the top.

 

Glad to hear you want Corbyn out. But unless Milne, Formby etc go too, the problem remains.

Nobody in their right mind supports discrimination against others. However, mainstream media including the BBC has been after him for a long time. It feels strange that the week Corbyn comes out with a major policy position on Brexit is the week they air a program that completely pivots the discussions. Not to mention, given recent developments inside the Conservative Party there may be a general election soon. Speaking of which, I would also like to see further discussions (or Panorama broadcasts) on Bojo and his "letter box"/"Islam is the Problem" quotes. An openly Islamophobic racist is about to enter No 10 and we have not once discussed how his views could impact a large group of minority British population. 

Anti-semitism is quite simple Guy Crouchback. Just don't be horrible to people just because they're Jewish. And btw you are being pretty horrible on this thread

I am not being horrible - the worst I did was accuse Lindarette of being naïve, which I am happy to apologise for, it seems she knows media manipulation is going on but feels very strongly about the subject anyway, which is fair enough.

reporting the facts is not media manipulation. 

HTH you tumplike cunt. 

 

wyn win11 Jul 19 14:36

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"That is naïve Linda, you must understand that this anti-Semitism stuff is really about trying to get rid of Corbyn."

You are either a moron or antisemitic

 

These positions are not mutually exclusive. 

 

 

What is getting lost in the noise, and in particular the screams from the racist left of "anti-Zionism is not antisemitism" is why they are so obsessed about Israel/Palestine in the first place when there are any number of other oppressed groups around the world they could obsess over.  Rogingya? Not a peep. Xinjiang? Tubmleweed.  Tamils? Who dey? 

"I am not justifying anti-Semitism in the Labour party or anywhere else I am saying the issue is getting huge media spotlight out of all proportion to attention paid to prejudice elsewhere because there are so many vested interests in getting rid of Corbyn and his crew (including within the party) and this is a way to do so."

 

Ah, "vested interests".  That's a new one.  I suppose "Zionists" has been overused and found out. 

Iguana I fear the AS tropes are so ingrained that some lefties don't realise what they are saying 

that and the perception that Jews are generally of a higher than average socioeconomic status means they can't really suffer

Nobody in their right mind supports discrimination against others. However, mainstream media including the BBC has been after him for a long time. It feels strange that the week Corbyn comes out with a major policy position on Brexit is the week they air a program that completely pivots the discussions. Not to mention, given recent developments inside the Conservative Party there may be a general election soon. Speaking of which, I would also like to see further discussions (or Panorama broadcasts) on Bojo and his "letter box"/"Islam is the Problem" quotes. An openly Islamophobic racist is about to enter No 10 and we have not once discussed how his views could impact a large group of minority British population. 

 

I guarantee that I hate Boris as much as you or any other Corbynite but there is a slight difference between his comments on "letterboxes" and Islam and Corbyn's anti-semitism: reality.  Burqas are an actual disgrace and should be outlawed and the dogma that goes along with the religion of Islam is a huge problem, whereas Israel doesn't control the world.

"reporting the facts is not media manipulation. 

HTH you tumplike cunt. Standard vile  from you - standard far right modus operandi."

Standard level of mindless offensiveness from you - the far right modus operandi.

You do understand that the media agenda is of vital importance to the national discourse and it is possible to arrange for the media to major in one thing and underplay another to enormous effect while only "reporting the facts"?  No you probably don't to be honest.

 

Guy "the media" made a dispatches programme 2 nights ago about the tories and racism and the populist / far right grab for the party. I don't recall you commenting on it. 

Can you genuinely not see how whataboutery looks? Really?