ok nail your colours to your mast NOW, what will be the final outcome

me, no brexit at all and we will remain. next.

Corbyn in No10 by early spring.

Norway style Brexit 

At least one more GE in 2019

We’re (moronically) crashing out!!

 

 

Delay to vote

Tinkering behind the scenes on backstop

Vote again

Fuck knows. I think we will end up remaining.

It's become clear that there isn't a single Brexiter in parliament who can knows their arse from their elbow. 

Yeah that really was shrouded in Scooby Doo level mystery eh Anna

Real question is, should I move more money back to the US now, or wait?

It's a good argument for remaining though, isn't it. Brexit might have been possible if a single person who believed in it was capable of doing anything without spectacularly fucking it up, but there you go, what a shame eh.

PP I don't know what currency broker you use but Transferwise are already saying you can't move more than £10k in or out of the UK tomorrow and they can't guarantee rates. And that was before this latest twist.

I think you are all missing the Trump factor.

The "it's too complicated, let me listen to the Archers and just get on with it"

People really aren't thinking about this :( :( 

Because people aren't thinking about it, cancelling it wouldn't be understood.... so I think they are currently hiring the hand basket to take us to hell  in...

 

If Brexit went ahead but Nigel Farage was indicted in the United States for something serious i would literally be happy enough with that outcome.

I have been saying for a while now that the EU should offer us two deals. The better one is only available if Nigel Farage and all the UKIP MEPs agree to forego their EU pensions. Then we'll see how patriotic they are.

TM to go back to brussels to try and negotiate new wording on the backstop.

The irish to laugh in her ghastly face

TM to try and sneak through an emergency vote on Boxing day with 1 hours notice when she has all her supporters on standby

I am watching the BBC News channel and cringing with embarrassment. This country is an absolute joke

Anna, the EU have no further deals to offer us, that is it, there will be no more yield or flex from them you heard it hear first. Agreed?

wellwrs there aint anything left for her to negotiate, thats it m8s

Of course there won't be any better deal forthcoming from the EU. The sticking point is the backstop, and the fact that backstop means backstop and we cannot unilaterally end the backstop because that is literally the whole fucking point of the backstop.

There isn't really anything more to be said.

No deal sadly.  It's clearly what the (civil service) EU negotiating team want.  Nothing else explains their approach throughout.

It's the end of an era and the world is about to become a lot more dangerous. I think people in the UK are starting to understand that finally. The next general election will be fought on nationalist populist lines (probably by both parties).  The only way to rationalize the economic pain will be to blame the EU. 

The only way out of it is if the Dutch and Germans can be convinced to exercise some realpolitik clout and get the backstop removed.  No doubt that is what TMPM will be seeking. I don't think she will get it. 

 

 

We will Remain. May is clearly going for brinkmanship. The vote was called off after hearing the Art 50 decision. She will push this to the last minute knowing that she can still cancel Brexit if she can't get enough votes for her deal. I don't think she will allow no deal to go ahead. She will try to use the uncertainty to win votes bit will fail.

Donny, nobody with two or more functioning brain cells wants "no deal". Certainly not anyone in the EU.

I think what has become apparent during this process is that whilst it is technically possible for member states to leave the EU, owing to the unique geopolitical structure of the British Isles, the UK and Ireland must either remain together or leave together, because anything else is a grave threat to the peace process and to the union.

Pity no one realised that before they agreed to a referendum?

(Where the fucking fuck is Cameron these days, anyway? Witness protection? He should be made to publicly apologise to the country. He should be made to get a tattoo of the word "SORRY" on his enormous shiny forehead and walk barefoot up and down the country until everyone has seen him in person.)

Lady P - the EU team have been looking to deliver a 'punishment' to the UK since the start and effectively said as much publicly. No deal is the best way to achieve that punishment pour encourager les autres. They must have known there was no way the backstop would ever be acceptable to the British parliament or people.  If they didn't then they lack your two or more functioning brain cells requirement frankly (as does May if she thought it would be). 

It is perfectly possible for the UK to leave without Ireland (and indeed it will do so). It is not possible after the UK has left for Ireland to continue to comply with it's obligations under the Good Friday Agreement without also leaving because the EU has made it clear it will not allow them to do so (for perfectly understandable reasons).  Ireland have done themselves few favours here. They see an opportunity here to take back the north and the Irish PM has been publicly gloating about his victory in getting the backstop on Irish TV.  Even the EU haven't really tried to claim this is a good or fair deal they have just said it is the only deal they will give. 

Blaming cameron (tempting as it is to give the moon faced khunt a slap) is disingenuous in the extreme.  The parliamentary vote in favour of the referendum was overwhelming precisely because both sides of the house accepted there was a real desire in the country to get this issue resolved.  Did people make the 'wrong' decision. Yeah of course they did. But they were entitled to make it.  We will have to live with the consequences. 

The EU and Ireland have made their own decisions about how to approach this. They to will also have to live with the consequences. 

 

I have no idea where this will all end up, srsly

Donny, you know you're talking utter bollocks, right?

Let's break this down.

The EU doesn't want to "punish us". They don't need to. All they need to do is not offer us a deal which makes us better off out than in, which they were never going to do for extremely obvious reasons. This doesn't mean they're "punishing us". Stop drinking the Torygraph kool-aid, it rots your brain.

I don't think they give much of a fuck about what is "acceptable to the British" anymore. When you are dealing with a country that has thrown its weight around for 40 years, then voted for unicorns, and is now stamping its foot and having a toddler tantrum because you pointed out that unicorns don't exist, there's really no point even trying to come up with a solution that they find "acceptable", because nothing will ever be good enough for these special snowflakes.

As for the border issue, it is clearly impossible for us to leave the EU whilst Ireland remains without breaching our obligations under the Good Friday Agreement and threatening the union of our country. The EU isn't threatening to "build a wall". The Irish probably don't actually want Northern Ireland dumped on them, and they certainly don't want Brexshit. They wanted to continue with life as normal. This one is on us.

We (and by "we" I mean the less intelligent, more gammon-faced half of those who voted in the referendum, being 37% of the electorate and a quarter of the population) made a choice to leave the EU. Our dozy parliament rubber stamped it before they'd woken up to the full implications of what we were doing.

None of that is the EU's fault, or Ireland's. Obviously, obviously we cannot have an open border with the EU customs union if we are no longer part of it.

If you can't grasp that then I can only conclude that you also lack those two functioning brain cells we were talking about.

I'm not sure that's a fair reflection of how Britain is seen within the EU. There's a lot of respect for our officials (which matters in a bureacracy) and we are strategically positioned in a lot of alliances within the bloc. They will miss us and they know they are dealing with people who are acting in good faith. That said, there's obviously a limit to what they can do without shooting themselves in the foot.

(good faith people being negotiators not politicians obv)

Here's an alternative theory.

We've known all along that this agreement would be hard to sell.  TMPM and the EU have already agreed concessions and despite what they say about there can be no changes they'll faff for a day and a half of their summit and then announce a few cosmetic changes.  We then have a second vote which passes by a reasonable majority and TMPM can be the hero of the hour and the letters are withdrawn from the 1922 Committee and Corbyn's chances of a successful vote of no confidence evaporate.  Maybe the EU and TMPM are using brinkmanship on the Brexiteers...

the final outcome will be some sort of fudge that literally no one is happy about

which is a shame as i would like to see the uk crash out, sterling tank and the economy in recession for years,  just for the lulz

Extension to A50 agreed, 2nd referendum, remain.

Anna, Cameron was interviewed by Sky yesterday 

“Of course I don’t regret calling a referendum. I made a promise in the election to call a referendum, and I called the referendum.

“Obviously I’m very concerned about what’s happening today, but I do support the Prime Minister in her efforts to try and have a close partnership with the EU.

“That’s the right thing to do, and she has my support.”

Twat.

Why didn't he fucking well stay and sort out the mess he made then?

Utter cunt.

Anna - You are awfully angry about this stuff and have an extremely negative view of the UK and its role in Europe (probably more negative than much of the EU does as Clerghs rightly points out).  

I do think your anger and negativity in some ways mirrors that of some of the senior civil servants in the EU though and that is the point I am making.

The idea that the UK has 'thrown it's weight around' for 40 years is an odd way to put it but it capture an important idea which is true I think.  The UK has never really wanted to be part of the EU political project. Ever closer union is not part of what the UK wants.  The EU could have been grown up about that and realized that the UK was always going to be a drag on their plans for something closer to a super state and negotiated a sensible Brexit that worked for both sides and got Britain out of the way of their plans.  But the problem they have is that lots of other countries don't want ever closer union either. If Britain got to be 'better off' by not having to put up with that but still getting to trade freely others might want it also. Perhaps punishment is too emotive a term but I am not sure we are actually saying terribly different things. You just think the only rational solution is to keep going with the EU and hope we can opt out of/slow down the ever closer union thing.  That was more or less my view pre-referendum as well. The British public disagreed with us though.  

 

The British public voted on the back of flawed and dishonest campaigning from both sides (but much more so from the leave side, let's face it) and decades of lies about the EU in the right wing media.

I think the British public are more informed now than they were in June 2016, and whilst it is clearly wishful thinking to hope that the angry gammon types screaming betrayal might reflect and change their minds, there are plenty of other perfectly normal and intelligent people who can see perfectly well that this is not turning out as promised.

Shouldn't they be given an opportunity to confirm whether this is really what they want?

You're all overlooking two things:

1.  Most of the population didn't get their views on the EU from right wing media but from what the know it all down the pub told them;

2. Most the of population are still getting their views as above and are wondering why we haven't just got in with it and reckon and we should sack f*ck the EU and just walk away.

Disclaimer: this is based on what a dozen builders have told me over the last 12 months but I think they're a reasonable sample of the Sussex and Kent population.

Disclaimer: this is based on what a dozen builders have told me over the last 12 months but I think they're a reasonable sample of the Sussex and Kent population.

If I didn't know that you were a sense of humour free zone I'd think this was obvious trolling.

It's not bollocks though cookie. There is absolutely no popular support in the UK for an ever more closely aligned EU that leads to things like a European Army (which Macron and Merkel are now calling for) or common foreign policy. 

 

There's also absolutely no popular support for food and medicine shortages and a fucked economy, but hey ho.

Saillaw, I suspect you are right that many of those who voted to leave are happy to just walk away, because they don't understand the implications of doing so (not necessarily because they are stupid but because as you say they don't spend time getting information from reliable sources), but parliament does spend that time and will not allow it to happen (that is why we don't have direct democracy) so no deal is not an option.

We (and by "we" I mean the less intelligent, more gammon-faced half of those who voted in the referendum, being 37% of the electorate and a quarter of the population) made a choice to leave the EU.

Glad you've finally dropped the pretence of being anything other than an angry, bigoted remoaner Anna.

I'm not sure why I should be under an obligation to sugar coat what I say about people who call me a "remoaner" and a "traitor". Particularly not when they are so obviously wrong and I am right.

If I get what I want and we remain, they get cross and have a little snowflake tantrum and maybe smash a few shop windows. If they get what they want and we leave with no deal, the country's economy and international reputation is trashed for decades and people's lives are ruined.

It's hardly comparable, is it?

Anna my tongue was somewhat in my cheek but it's also true that after 12 months spending at least a day a week plus the odd full week and weekend with a bunch of tradesmen I'm amazed at little some of them know about how this country works and world events.  I don't think I've even seen a copy of the Sun on site.

To be fair, no sane person could fail to be angry at the shambles of the last few years.  I agree Anna's negative stereotyping by use of age sex and gender is unfortunate and she would deplore it in any other circumstance.

Particularly not when they are so obviously wrong and I am right.

Wait.. are you my wife? *waves*

I don't think people want no deal. I think they want to leave on sensible terms, but that's up to Parliament and not the people to deliver. Time will tell but I'm not going to get upset until I know what's actually happening.

I don't think I've even seen a copy of the Sun on site.

To be fair, the Sun wouldn't help them become better informed.

Maybe not but in this day and age they don't even bother with such age old staples and they spend tea breaks on their phones watching You Tube videos about installation of septic tanks and the like (they actually did that yesterday because the installation instructions that came with the tank were so lacking in detail).

Fred, the people we are talking about (the angry wall of gammon) most definitely DO want us to leave with no deal. And whatever deal Theresa May or any other PM ends up negotiating which is acceptable to parliament will not be acceptable to those people.

So given that what they want is not an option, we would be better off removing them from the equation altogether and considering only the views of those who are not mentally subnormal.

YouTube is a much better source of information than The Sun. There are even some pretty informative videos about Brexit on there.

I agree with you personally Cookie but I don't think people want the UK to have that role any more. There is a flip side of Anna's 'oh we just throw our weight around all the time and are difficult' which says 'fvck 'em let them get on with it and we can stay out of it'.  As I have said before many times I am in favour of second referendum that puts the real world choices on the table and we can see if people have changed their mind.  I am not sure they will have done. 

Anna, can you explain why use of the term "gammon" as a negative stereotype for a person of a particular age, sex and race based on the way they look is acceptable?  I am genuinely curious.

Guy, I'm not really stereotyping by age and gender. Young women can be gammon too.

Gammon is a negative term for late middle aged white men and you know it, the fact you include others by association is really not a justification - a proposition that could easily tested by substituting other words targeting sex and race used down the years and giving it a try.

Gammon is a term which has entered our vocabulary in the last couple of years which is used specifically to describe people who are very angry about the fact that they voted to leave the EU, don't understand why it hasn't been done yet or why we have to "negotiate with the EU", don't care about our legal obligations, don't know what the WTO rules are or where Northern Ireland is, and suspect that a remain stitch up is going to deprive them of their precious Brexit.

The term has come about because said people usually swell up and go red in the face as they splutter indignantly and incoherently about all of the above.

The fact that it is usually middle aged white men who go on panel shows to do this is unfortunate, but not indicative. Other people of different genders, ages and races have exhibited the same behaviour.

calling someone a 'gammon' is about as civilised as calling them "stale, male and pale"

More civilised than telling someone that voting remain is equivalent to treason and that when we bring back the death penalty you will personally volunteer for the job of hanging them, to be fair. (I was on the receiving end of that from a gammon once.)

Oh I thought gammon was just any middle aged middle class bloke who gets angry about anything and everything from the golf club changing the menu to world affairs.  If it's Brexit specific I can no longer self-deprecatingly call myself gammon as it doesn't make me angry at all.  The yacht club not allowing sailing wear in the bar after 8.00pm in the summer is a wholly different matter...

I don't know I'm only few years from my first pair of red chinos.

vote 'before 21 January' apparently according to PM's spokesperson

presumably in order to dampen down the Parliamentary bitchfest starting at 1pm 

 

SummerSails11 Dec 18 10:39

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You're all overlooking two things:

1.  Most of the population didn't get their views on the EU from right wing media but from what the know it all down the pub told them;

2. Most the of population are still getting their views as above and are wondering why we haven't just got in with it and reckon and we should sack f*ck the EU and just walk away.

Disclaimer: this is based on what a dozen builders have told me over the last 12 months but I think they're a reasonable sample of the Sussex and Kent population.

 

Yes, that's exactly it. Moving down to this area after 11 years in London was a good reminder that London thinking is not the same as that of the rest of the country. 

As for being able to call the outcome, I don't think it is possible to nail colours to the mast until we know what questions will be on the card if there is a referendum. I think there will be one however, but if it remains binary then my call is that we will leave. 

Why? Because, as Sails said, the population get their views from their peers. Nearly every Leaver I have met down here since the referendum is simply asking why they can't just "get on with it", as if it were as simple as leaving the pub. 

Tbh I don't really care anymore, as long as no deal is not on the ballot paper. And if it is, well maybe I'll buy a house once the bottom has fallen out of sterling and the property market.

who else thinks that sailo already owns several pairs of red cords?

The person who wrote that definition does not explain why it is necessary for gammon to be male or middle aged. It could perhaps be argued that they need to be white, on the grounds that if someone with dark skin were to fly into an apopleptic rage about Brexit it wouldn't make their face go pink.

I suggest you write to Urban Dictionary and complain.

I'm not sure that's a fair reflection of how Britain is seen within the EU. There's a lot of respect for our officials (which matters in a bureacracy) and we are strategically positioned in a lot of alliances within the bloc. They will miss us and they know they are dealing with people who are acting in good faith. That said, there's obviously a limit to what they can do without shooting themselves in the foot.

 

 

---------------------------------

 

Britain is seen as having massive issues. There is no respect for your officials, they are a joke. And we will not be missing the British - we had enough of the British, thx.

Anna - You are awfully angry about this stuff and have an extremely negative view of the UK and its role in Europe (probably more negative than much of the EU does as Clerghs rightly points out).  

------------------

 

Careful, as your star really *is* sinking. You will find that the loss of respect and loss of trust generated by brexit and the gammons/the gammon kings will translate into loss of earnings - just give it some time.

I don't think the brits should be in any doubt how much they annoy anyone who follows politics.

And we will not be missing the British - we had enough of the British

 

This should be the new EU motto post-Brexit. You could even add an extra verse to Ode to Joy just with these words.

Lady P, gammon quite clearly is a term of abuse for middle aged white men that has been extended - your argument is bit like the Alan Partridge defence of "gay" as in an insult because now it is just referring to something bad not a homosexual.

Not that I am greatly bothered by this, middle aged white men can largely look after themselves but I don't like hypocrisy

Anna is in danger of becoming Brexit's hanners. No matter how much I loathe him, hanners increasingly deranged rantings could have almost driven me to vote for him (indirectly obvs) nust to annoy hanners. Similarly, after a two year diet of Anna rants, I'd be almost tempted to vote Leave in a second ref* **

*I won't obvs

**This is mostly intended as a joke. Mostly.

you see, I have been following british politics ever since and I got *ahem* upset reading brexiter bollocks early on

the rest of the poulation over here was not nearly as angry as I, not even remotely. but now they begin to catch up and realise, the british are  in a very bad shape indeed. not only are they mugs who think they are something better, they are arseholes too whose word doesn't count, a deal is no deal

and they came to that conclusion even without reading the leave.eu FB page

 

 

Lady P - the EU team have been looking to deliver a 'punishment' to the UK since the start and effectively said as much publicly. No deal is the best way to achieve that punishment pour encourager les autres. 

 

-----------------

Brexiter/BoJos behaviour can. not. be. rewarded and indeed it won't. Many Europeans would be very disappointed if he EU team would make any concessions and the EU top dogs know that. I am very satisified with Barnier, Juncker et al

Guy, it is not merely a derogatory term for a middle aged white man, for the completely fucking obvious reason that many (in fact probably most) middle aged white men do not fit the description of a gammon.

Keir Starmer, for example, is a middle aged white man, but not a gammon. Katie Hopkins and Nadine Dorries are not middle aged white men, but they are gammons.

FTAOD I do not currently own any pairs of cords.

I can, however, look a bit gammony when dealing with certain estate agents and government entities.

Ken Clarke has just said that he thinks it will boil down to a choice between no deal or no brexit, and he would welcome the A50 notice being withdrawn.  

sails

I dont think your workmen are alone in their views.

most mornings about 9-11 I am in the gym on the treadmill ( benefit of working for myself!) watching Victoria Derbyshire holding round table talks with people from all walks of society. Young, old, from all parts of the country. There are youngsters who voted remain now changing to leave. There are older people who voted leave now changing to remain. Some people think that all leave is plain racism, others who are “worryingly brown” arguing for no deal. On one occasion the talk came from a large redbrick university and there was as much support for leave as there was for remain and a shockingly large proportion of all of it utterly ill informed.

 

Ok Anna, I usually agree with you, but the fact you are so utterly convinced about something even where you are very arguably wrong means I think you have lost the capability of having tones or shades of thought - you are obviously right and anyone who disagrees with you is obviously wrong about pretty much anything.  You are not doing the remain cause much good I am afraid.

Probably a distant relative of Strangely Brown, one of the Trinity College Tiddlywinkers as referred to in Blackadder Goes Forth. 

Anna I was being sarcastic, using a favourite rof insult. Sorry, I obv failed!

Minkie that was rather point that they are probably more representative of the population at large than people on here but this is the place where I was accused of making things up when I said I knew a nurse who didn't know the name of the PM, couldn't name the main party leaders and wasn't quite sure what the election was about a week before a general election.

Guy, not even you are arguing that "gammon" means "middle aged white man". It is clearly a word used to describe a certain type of belief and behaviour, not a particular demographic.

Minkie, I haven't heard that expression before.

gammon is clearly a snide reference to the skin colour of those who espouse pro brexity opinions.

i don't see it as an acceptable term tbh

 

heh at Buzz's 13.12

I have just met Ian Hislop at a book signing and he said the same thing about Alistair Campbell

It is their opinions that make them gammon, not their skin colour. (Or their gender, obviously.) Do keep up.

When they stop using the words "remoaner" and "traitor", I shall consider not using the woerd "gammon".

yeah I know sails I was kinda expanding your argument.

I am genuinely sorry if I offended anyone with that phrase I used. If it helps, I’m a bit dark skinned myself!

Anna, you being deliberately obtuse you because you are incapable of giving an inch in argument.  It is the origin of the phrase which is offensive and as wellers said clearly relates to the appearance of a certain demographic.

Not offended personally, but tell me something. When you talk about someone who is "worryingly brown" advocating no deal, do you think no deal would be worse for brown people than it would be for white people?

I think it would be a great leveller actually. 99% of us would all be in the same shit.

amazing that some people get upset about 'gammon' yet redhead abuse is still allowed on the spy thread.

Guy, if you're not thumping your fist and getting all shouty about how the only real Brexit is a no deal Brexit and the remoaners are sabotaging everything then you're not a gammon. If you are, then you are.

It's a word used to describe people behaving in a certain way and if they want to avoid being called it then can easily do so by not behaving like a gammon.

I'm really not sure why you expect me to be shamefaced for using a derogatory term about people who bring it on themselves through their own behaviour (as distinct from their age, gender or skin colour), and who routinely use all kinds of rude expressions about remainers (not to mention all the ugly threats of violence).

In summary, behold the field in which I grow my fucks and see that it is barren.

Guy, if you're not thumping your fist and getting all shouty about how the only real Brexit is a no deal Brexit and the remoaners are sabotaging everything then you're not a gammon. If you are, then you are.

It's a word used to describe people behaving in a certain way and if they want to avoid being called it then can easily do so by not behaving like a gammon.

I'm really not sure why you expect me to be shamefaced for using a derogatory term about people who bring it on themselves through their own behaviour (as distinct from their age, gender or skin colour), and who routinely use all kinds of rude expressions about remainers (not to mention all the ugly threats of violence).

In summary, behold the field in which I grow my fucks and see that it is barren.

Anna, as I have said it is the origin of the phrase as a derogatory term for the appearance of certain sex age and skin colour that is objectionable.  It doesn't make a difference who you actually choose to insult with the term.  But you will not give an inch, and this is not a subject I care much about, so lets leave it there.