Men and suicide

The statistics are horrible.  Most likely cause of death for men between 26 and 49 is suicide.

I appreciate that there are a great many female issues about relating to equality as well as sexism in the workplace and those need a platform.

But why the fuck are we not talking about the largest mental health crisis ever seen in this country?

I don't know why we aren't talking about it. It's not either / or

every time I point out the ghastly effects of toxic masculinity on this board I get accused of hating men tho ...

No mate not at all, trying to work out why, as someone who formulated the perfect suicide plan and was only thwarted by the voices in my head telling me to talk to my doctor (literally) I am very concerned about this.

why do so many comments on this issue imply you are only allowed to care about issues affecting men OR issues affecting women?

Because most of the 'victims' of this crisis are white men, who are apparently the root cause of all evil and deserve no sympathy whatsoever.  

Sorry linda I’m still sipping my coffee, failing to understand what you’re getting at with your post.

I cannot really get into the policy of this because I don't accept suicide as necessarily irrational or pathological (I know it often is)

I also don't think the gender split is that clearcut. Women try more often but fail (and are more commonly afflicted with associated disorders like chronic pain). 

What is the answer? I don't know. I don't think it's rational to want to live. Even if it is, we don't really have good medicines for the brains anyway.

why do so many comments on this issue imply you are only allowed to care about issues affecting men OR issues affecting women?

Indeed, it is not an either / or. So why doesn't it get more attention?

I think Teclis' point is simply that this issue dos not get anywhere near the attention it deserves. 

I think if women killed themselves in the numbers men do, the issue would get more attention. 

This is actually covered a lot in the press and by the Beeb. It's an example of a patriarchal society working against men, too. The whole idea that a real man suppresses his feelings and doesn't talk about them etc etc.

And I had a friend who hanged himself when we were 23 so I am not talking from a position of just repeating what the press say.

Sort of what apnhb said, the problem is when it gets raised online you get the incels chirping up (as is already happening on this thread) and the whole thing gets devalued. 

It’s also interesting that the same types would rather ask “why doesn’t it get as much attention as wimmin’s issues” rather than “what can we do to reverse it?”

Just a reminder that women try more often than men but use less lethal methods

Really don't think the man woman dichotomy works

Attention to an issue secures funding which leads to resolutions.  

stardust05 Sep 19 10:35

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This is actually covered a lot in the press and by the Beeb. It's an example of a patriarchal society working against men, too. The whole idea that a real man suppresses his feelings and doesn't talk about them etc etc.

I assume this is not what you are trying to say, but it does come across a little like "men are to blame for their own suicides". 

I don't really get all the hand wringing about something being THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH amongst an age group who are too young to die of old age. As by its nature it'll be something deemed 'preventable' - so what would you prefer - cancer, car accidents? 

It gives no indication on the issue itself, if it's increasing/decreasing etc.  

I did not know that. Whereas everyone (literally everyone) knows about the men suicide thing. 

I would commend the rubber bandits song “sonny” to all. 

There is a much larger awareness of mental health issues (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/48218327 as an example). A lot more celebs and people in the public eye have started to be willing to discuss these things. It's a slow burn but things are changing.

Just because it hasn't been discussed on RoF (one the most posturing misogynistic place on the internet, ffs - why would it be?!) doesn't mean there isn't awareness otherwise.

 

Well if you have the solution to life being a flaming shit show then I'm sure you could secure funding TBF

Clergs are you saying that women are less intelligent than men?

It took me half a day of research a few years ago to find a painless method.  £70 online purchases and I had everything I needed.

Also what creme said 100%

It used to be industrial accidents

It's always going to be something

That is a good point Rhamnousia, but it may be the case (and I suspect it is personally) that the reasons men and women try to kill themselves may often be very different (though there will be reasons in common e.g. chronic pain as you mentioned) and therefore require different solutions. 

I assume this is not what you are trying to say, but it does come across a little like "men are to blame for their own suicides". 

Erm, no. What an odd thing to say. The societal structure we have forces men to try and be tough and not to discuss their feelings. It's not men's fault - it's also an echo of old school Victorian and Empiric values re stiff upper lip and all that shit.  What people need to realise is that everyone struggles and people shouldn't feel they can't speak up for fear of judgement if they are struggling.

Women are more thoughtful (worries about pain/disfigurement/arrest) but most suicide attempts by either sex fail

The statistics are horrible

Out of interest, what are the numbers?

Why doesn't it get more attention?

because men don't talk about it 

why don't they talk about it?

because when men talk about their feelings other men take the piss, or expect women to fix it 

 

"Because most of the 'victims' of this crisis are white men..."

Would you want to rephrase that you race baiter?

Erm, no. What an odd thing to say. The societal structure we have forces men to try and be tough and not to discuss their feelings.

Does it? Which other human cultures differ significantly in this regard?

It's not men's fault - it's also an echo of old school Victorian and Empiric values re stiff upper lip and all that shit. 

Seems a bit of a reach to me, can you elaborate on this?

What people need to realise is that everyone struggles and people shouldn't feel they can't speak up for fear of judgement if they are struggling.

Agreed. 

 

"Just because it hasn't been discussed on RoF (one the most posturing misogynistic place on the internet, ffs - why would it be?!) doesn't mean there isn't awareness otherwise."

good point most men are less weird than you lot 

 

Which other human cultures differ significantly in this regard?

Did I just walk into an anthropology study sesh or something? Why don't you look it up. I can only comment on the society in which I live which is mostly run and governed by posturing men who think they're the mutt's nuts.

Seems a bit of a reach to me, can you elaborate on this?

Are you a bloke, Toastie? Have you been ever a victim of male bravado or posturing? Do you sometimes get encouraged by your mates to be loutish and a bit of a twat? Are you good at talking about your feelings to your mates?

 

 

Did I just walk into an anthropology study sesh or something? Why don't you look it up.

It is for the one making bold and outlandish and unfounded claims about the nature of society to proffer some evidence of those claims.

Lol at "Patriarchy". I mean come the fuck on now. You should have grown out of this phase by now. 

 

You're doing a brilliant job of persuading people to care about your mental health here dude 

or expect women to fix it

i presume you're not doing the 'in sickness and in health' viw then Linda, don't want no wet blanket man asking for emotional support - yuk that would make a laydee as dry as the Gobi desert I imagine 

If you don't think old fashioned patriarchal stereotypes repress men from talking about their mental health, why do you think it is then? 

This is exactly what happens whenever this topic comes up on here. It descends into an attack on women for trying to explore what could be triggering male depression and inhibiting men from talking about it. 

If we are wrong - what do you think is the problem then? 

You can presume whatever you like, you will regardless of anything I say in response to that brain fart 

lindaradlett05 Sep 19 10:43

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Why doesn't it get more attention?

because men don't talk about it 

why don't they talk about it?

because when men talk about their feelings other men take the piss, or expect women to fix it 

What are you basing this on?  

I have had a few teary dinners with my best mate who has had some really harrowing moments because of his mental health struggles. 

He talks about this more frankly to me than he does to his wife and sisters because he doesn't want to scare his wife and, frankly, some (perhaps a lot) women claim to want a sensitive man, but are actually despise any sign of weakness in a man. 

Men are talking about mental health all the fucking time.  Online anyway.  Not in real life.

Aww that's cute, falling back on personal attacks cos you're not sure how to respond. That's very year 8 debate club.

Do you think we live in a balanced society? We don't. The world is based on a man's view. There are numerous examples of this. Even down to crash test dummies not being based on a woman's physiology. Seat belts not being suitable for women (and not tested to be). Stab vests not designed to protect a woman. Medications not tested on women because of the hormonal fluctuations making it more complicated to do so. So don't you come at me with your "euwww, feminism!" attitude as if it somehow makes you superior. It doesn't. There is evidence to support the fact that the world we live in is skewed to the benefit of men and their existence. Mmmkay, sweetie?

Now, if you look up the mental health charities that try and support men, you will see that the men who suffer are struggling because they cannot talk about their feelings. Why is that? Because we assume that men must be the tough guy, the breadwinners, the "strong" ones. That has been evidenced and talked about quite a lot - see the bbc links I posted above where men who have struggled talk about their inability to discuss their feelings. So you may throw the definition of "patriarchy" back at me with disdain but you don't actually provide any alternative reason as to why men struggle in this way. So, go on. Tell me. I may not use the right title for you, but that's just semantics.

If we are wrong - what do you think is the problem then? 

I think women aren't sexually attracted to emotionally needy, weak or 'wet' men. So as long as that is the case men will need to be stoic, strong and not show weakness. Basic stuff.

hot now is Roosh V and I claim my free copy of 12 Rules for Life

hotnow nailed it. 

Stated preferences so often differ from revealed preferences. 

@Stardust, please bore someone else with your gender studies BS. I have heard it all before.

Do you lot have any positive discussion or suggestions to make to solve the problem of men's poor mental health or do you just want to get angry with women (again)?

Well the pop feminist view is that it's 'men can't communicate' or male culture is 'toxic' so ofc it's men's fault ofc

yes, you don't even have the right question. You aren't even in the right class of the right school.

You are so far off the mark that the curvature of the earth prevents you from even seeing it.

I'm not actually saying it's anyone's fault I'm saying it's just nature and we should accept it and move on. For men's mental health more worthwhile meaningful jobs and increased health care funding I suppose - I dunno I'm not a politician

I'm not actually saying it's anyone's fault I'm saying it's just nature and we should accept it and move on. For men's mental health more worthwhile meaningful jobs and increased health care funding I suppose - I dunno I'm not a politician

Hold the phone!

Maybe it's both men (generally) and women (generally) reinforcing the idea of the strong man not being able to talk about his feelings.

KABOOMMMMMMMM

Well fuck me - it's all our faults and can't be reduced to a men v women debate.

Hey Supes I'm all ears o wise one feel free to enlighten me

Ok ignore what the nasty feminists say. What do you think is the cause of this problem hotnow? And what is the solution?

hotnow is absolutely killing it.

Those laying into him/her should read his/her posts properly. 

Another good start may be to put an end to the constant demonisation of men in the media. Hardly any of us are violent, sexist or rapists. 

I'm a violent, sexist rapist Cheesetoastie and I'll grope anyone who says otherwise.

(This isn't true, I've never groped anyone.  I have, however, been groped by both women and men).

Nah you've got nothing to say.

linda I think I answered your 2 questions but let me know if u need further deets 

I don't need anything from you dude, particularly not marriage guidance 

 

You are obviously right. I'm certainly no Roosh V or Jordan Peterson, lol.

So does literally everyone think it's some sort of societal flaw rather than an evolutionary hardbaked fact that some humans are superfluous to the tribe?

I just don't believe men kill themselves because they're worried about telling their friends things. I don't think men really WANT to share in the same way women do.

Yes Clergs you see this the wrong way round.

Do I though

Nature is harsh as fuck and we are animals with knowledge of our own mortality

@Rhamnousia, I think it is a bit of both, but more of an evolutionary thing. So basically, I pretty much agree with you.

Men are far more expendable than women from an evolutionary point of view which is why male death is generally seen by society as not quite as bad as death of females. Societies see it this way because of biology. 

If you are an unwanted male, life can be pretty shit. Women are far less likely to find themselves in a position where absolutely no man is interested in them.

We are talking about group averages here of course.  

I think it's easy for women to be uninteresting to men but I think it's easier for women to play other roles in a tribe than it is for a man. If he's not hunting and gathering and shagging what is he doing? Maybe druiding but you need charisma for that. 

Look it's both, isn't it?  Maybe there are instances when people rightly judge themselves to be superfluous and do themselves in.  But there are others, and I think it's the vast majority, where temporary situational problems or mental health issues or both drive people to do something that they wouldn't have done normally and, had they lived, would have regretted.  Life is the only asset nature has and destroying it is the exception to the rule and for extreme circumstances only, I think.

Yes, Rahmanousia. I think it is the not shagging bit that is often key. 

Women are definitely in higher demand than men though generally speaking. We happily send men to be mown down or maimed in the thousands on foreign battlefields. We wouldn't (and haven't historically) do that with women. 

Historically, a conquering army would massacre the men and boys and enslave the women and girls which is obviously shit for the men and the women, but also tells you about their relative worth. 

 

The armies often killed the older women TBF

See also the Isis pricing structure the absolute rude wanks

 

The armies often killed the older women TBF

That is a good point. 

Yes, to refine the point, human societies value women of child-bearing / pre-child-bearing age far more highly than any human outside those groups. 

Society is the way it is almost entirely because of biology. 

The differences between human societies are not really that significant even if they appear to be to us. Narcissism of small differences init. A Martian would probably recognise this more easily than we are able to. 

For example, I am not aware of any human society that prefers to use fertile women for the most dangerous tasks and I am pretty sure no such human society has ever existed. Better to use the men because you don't need as many of them.  

Communist dictatorships also quite equal opps re gulags/salt mines

The Amazons might want a word about that,

Interested to hear what this fictional group has to say.

Communist dictatorships also quite equal opps re gulags/salt mines

Certainly grim, but far more men ended up in the Gulag. This makes sense from a biological and economic point of view because the primary purpose of the Gulag was to create a labour force for mining and other heavy industries. 

Gulags were famous for making pregnant women work immediately after giving birth

The Amazons might want a word about that

And don't forget that other fictional tribe of sex crazed women from Carry On Up the Jungle who are ruled by the only man (a lost explorer) played by Charles Hawtrey

 famous for making pregnant women work immediately after giving birth

sounds like the law firm I used to work at

That's bad?

Chinese women give birth in the fields and CARRY ON WORKING 

Ethel Kennedy played 3 sets of tennis within one hour of giving birth

Women in the gulag had to share huts with 30 men. It was good not to be pretty 

Fucking horrified at the direction this thread went.  Have a word with yourselves, all of you.  

Lots of men are killing themselves why not talk about why without it becoming some mad rant about politics.

I’m going to go back to watching Shane williams videos and rocking back and forth.

Twats.

Not sure anyone is particularly well served from a mental health perspective in this country. Ultimately it is like any other illness where, in the absence of unlimited funds, you need to trade off cost versus benefit. Sadly e.g. RTAs are an easy fix and potentially self-funding in terms of prevention via fines for driving offences. I also think there may be a degree of ingrained recklessness in men that means it would be difficult to remove all differences between the sexes - look at RTA death statistics - far more men die than would be proportionate to sexes of motorcyclists, and the same is true of car occupants assuming the sex split is roughly equal.

Tbf, I think it is less "women" putting expectations on one but rather "people" or "society".  In the UK anyway, but I suspect across the world.  Religion is well unhelpful tbf.

Hopefully it will phase out but I suspect we are just moving from "What do you mean you aren't going to follow me in to t'mill or t'deloitte or t'magic circle. Oh it's heRBIES WHAT IS THAT ABOUT U FAILURE" to "what do u mean you now want to be called emily and paint gothic art - how will that go down at the rugby club".

We need to campaign for more female suicide NOW!  This is sexist bollocks! 

Real men don't commit suicide, they crush their enemies, see them driven before them, and  hear the lamentation of their women

For them, there is no spring. Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm

 

Clergs makes a good point about men not just being pressured by societal norms to not share their feelings but simply not wanting to.  This is true in many cases.

Christ this thread has some awesomely bonkers stuff on it. 

It’s a Tecco thread; bonkers is pretty much guaranteed ...