Is Labour a Cult

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50242562

 

I cant stand how it is so negative and hate filled. Corbyn manages to discuss things I generally agree with and still make me unsupportive.

 

I actually blame Corbyn and his Corbynistas for half the issues of division we are currently facing. If we had a half decent opposition leader over the last few years I think politics might be in a much better place! 

 

 

So the conservatives are blocking Brexit themselves despite voting for it recently?

I read the whole article and have no idea which bit of it you think is negative and hate filled?

yeah sorry think I did the wrong link innit

 

Just meant the video

Johnson blocked Brexit by only allowing parliament 3 days to debate it and then pulling it when they asked for more time even though they had agreed it in principle.   He thinks people wont notice - they will.  As with everything else - this was all calculated to improve his personal position.   He was happy to go to polls in a blaze of glory having got Brexit over the line by 31 Oct but otherwise prefers to paint a narrative that a vote for him equals Brexit and a vote for the opposition equals dither.  The man is an utter scumbag and more and more people will see through him in the coming weeks.

I agree Guy, but I think you're incredibly optimistic. 

More people will see through him if the opposition do their job properly-  I agree probably not enough,...

Labour is an embarrassment. There are lots of great MPs completely powerless because of the cult. 

It is ironic that labour should be accused of being a cult at a time when the omni present Brexit cult is destroying the country.

OR

 

Could you argue that given the extension

Given the Xmas election

 

IF tories get a big win, which I suspect is pretty likely...then which deal is going to go through? 

 

He won't be stuck dealing with Parliament so would more easily get the deal he wants through, but will no longer need to win Brexit Party votes and right leaning tory votes as the election is been and gone...so in  theory a softer brexit deal COULD find its way in front of parliament? 

 

Of course this will never be suggested in the run up to the election but it would the hope I would have if the Torys win big 

 

To be clear I am not a Tory voter 

 

 I abhor the negative view Corbyn has of the UK, of millions of downtrodden paupers exploited by his “elite” who all exploit them and dodge taxes.

FUCK OFF

It is not the case that all (arbitrary measurement here) “ wealthy” people fit this stereotype.

It is not the case that his “many” are all living in poverty. Too many, yes. Not a majority.

Minkie - I totally agree, this is what freaks me out about Labour 

Big ifs Archie. What if Bodger needs the hard right votes for his deal?

No one nation stuff then.

minkie, I don't think it is about having a go at particular individuals.  It is a recognition that wealth and power is becoming more concentrated in a fewer hands and that the benefits of economic growth are no longer dripping down to all..

I think all oarliamentary parties have a few hallmarks of cult like behaviour tbf.

Why would he need that if he won a massive majority in the election? And arguably some of those centrist Tories who left the Conservative party have moved on to other parties e.g. Philip Lee, may vote through a softer brexit deal from the lib dem benches? Maybe Maybe not 

I think what Minkie is pointing to (correct me if I am wrong) is that he is not talking about "the problem", instead he is labelling and creating a them vs us concept. "Whose side are you on" etc. 

 

In the same way as the "right" had taken this approach with immigrants (or humans from other places" as I like to call them) Corbyn is doing this with "the wealthy". 

I think all Corbyn is saying is that the wealthy can afford to contribute more to society generally, which is true.

there you go Guy..

"the wealthy" ---what else shall we say about "the wealthy" 

labelling is the start of things. You could say the same stuff with no need to discuss "the wealthy"

I don’t understand what phrase should you use to articulate the point?  The better off?  I don’t see the wealthy as a particularly prejorative term

we need more money for the poor and we will raise it through taxes

 

why do you need to mention "the wealthy"

I would have thought to make clear that not everyone will have to pay higher taxes but only those who can afford to on the bases they are better off the most

not everyone will have to pay higher taxes but only those who can afford to on the bases they are better off the most

 

why dont you just say that then e.g: 

not everyone will have to pay higher taxes but only those who can afford to on the bases they are better off the most

not everyone will have to pay higher taxes but only those who can afford to on the bases they are better off the most

 

why dont you just say that then e.g: 

not everyone will have to pay higher taxes but only those who can afford to on the bases they are better off the most

The labelling is a clear strategy decision and that is what I find so offputting as it gives a horrible insight into what must make up the deeper politics within the Corbyn camp - and it is hatred driven

Define "wealthy"?  Is it based solely on income, or do expenditure and wealth come into it?

As Orwell observed, it is not love of the poor that motivates the Left but hatred of the "rich" (i.e. anyone with 10% more than they have).  

Iguana how do you explain in that case the champagne socialists?

Orwell was a man of the left all his life - please reference that quote

Road to Wigan Pier, Ch. 11:

"It may be said, however, that even if the theoretical book-trained Socialist is not a working man himself, at least he is actuated by a love of the working class. He is endeavouring to shed his bourgeois status and fight on the side of the proletariat — that, obviously, must be his motive.

But is it? Sometimes I look at a Socialist — the intellectual, tract-writing type of Socialist, with his pullover, his fuzzy hair, and his Marxian quotation — and wonder what the devil his motive really is. It is often difficult to believe that it is a love of anybody, especially of the working class, from whom he is of all people the furthest removed. The underlying motive of many Socialists, I believe, is simply a hypertrophied sense of order. The present state of affairs offends them not because it causes misery, still less because it makes freedom impossible, but because it is untidy; what they desire, basically, is to reduce the world to something resembling a chessboard. Take the plays of a lifelong Socialist like Shaw. How much understanding or even awareness of working-class life do they display? Shaw himself declares that you can only bring a working man on the stage ‘as an object of compassion’; in practice he doesn’t bring him on even as that, but merely as a sort of W. W. Jacobs figure of fun — the ready-made comic East Ender, like those in Major Barbara and Captain Brassbound’s Conversion. At best his attitude to the working class is the sniggering Punch attitude, in more serious moments (consider, for instance, the young man who symbolizes the dispossessed classes in Misalliance) he finds them merely contemptible and disgusting. Poverty and, what is more, the habits of mind created by poverty, are something to be abolished from above, by violence if necessary; perhaps even preferably by violence. Hence his worship of ‘great’ men and appetite for dictatorships, Fascist or Communist; for to him, apparently (vide his remarks apropos of the Italo-Abyssinian war and the Stalin-Wells conversations), Stalin and Mussolini are almost equivalent persons. You get the same thing in a more mealy-mouthed form in Mrs Sidney Webb’s autobiography, which gives, unconsciously, a most revealing picture of the high-minded Socialist slum-visitor. The truth is that, to many people calling themselves Socialists, revolution does not mean a movement of the masses with which they hope to associate themselves; it means a set of reforms which ‘we’, the clever ones, are going to impose upon ‘them’, the Lower Orders. On the other hand, it would be a mistake to regard the book-trained Socialist as a bloodless creature entirely incapable of emotion. Though seldom giving much evidence of affection for the exploited, he is perfectly capable of displaying hatred — a sort of queer, theoretical, in vacua hatred — against the exploiters. Hence the grand old Socialist sport of denouncing the bourgeoisie. It is strange how easily almost any Socialist writer can lash himself into frenzies of rage against the class to which, by birth or by adoption, he himself invariably belongs."

 

Guy - by that argument Donald Trump having BAME voting for him means he is not a racist?!

Iguana that is a great excerpt. Have not read the Road to Wigan Pier but looks like I must do! 

I am familiar with that Iguana and it is a good excerpt but he does not say socialists are motivated by hatred of those richer than themselves far from it 

 

"Though seldom giving much evidence of affection for the exploited, he is perfectly capable of displaying hatred — a sort of queer, theoretical, in vacua hatred — against the exploiters"

Archie you are absolutely right, its the bash the rich (regardless, and for the sake of it), politics of envy which is so dreadful. The many not the few etc. Lets not worry about the few, they are by definition few in number, we dont need to worry about stigmatising and picking on a minority.

I most certainly would not ever describe myself as “elite” in any way but I suspect Corbyn would, purely by virtue of my bank balance, and thats a good enough reason to stigmatise me as a dishonest and exploitative tax dodger. And this is no humblebrag, many many middle aged roffers will be too rich by his standards. I actually believe in fair taxes, its not that I’m worried about, it’s the incitement to hatred. His language is awful.

All that stuff is straight from the D Cummings play book minkie, pure brextremism 

Barry all that stuff is 100% my instinctive reaction to Corbyn’s speech today. The words from his mouth. It has nothing to do with anything the Tories say, I dont’t need them to do my thinking for me.

Oh and John McDonnell again today saying if necessary they will run a minority government (really???) and hope the other MPs will support their policies and if they dont they will have another GE.

mind boggling.

My point was the views you attribute to Corbyn are the same ones Cummings espouses about ‘rich remainers’. The ‘elites’ telling us what to do etc. 
 

same bullshit, different rosette

"One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England."

RTWP. 

 

Oh right. You mean Leavers furious at being told what to think etc.ok.

well now you’re brought that into it, is it not a great shame that Corbyn is now trying to get another strand of hatred going in what is already a very divided country. He’s certainly succeeded in making me hate him.

Not just being told what to think, but politics of envy - cosseted metropolitan elites v poor downtrodden left behinds. Exactly the same tactics.

Sorry I should have done the full quote there:

"In addition to this there is the horrible — the really disquieting — prevalence of cranks wherever Socialists are gathered together. One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England."

Don’t worry minkie the momentum kids will be calling on you to relieve you of your privilege ;)

Sorry iguana he says middle class socialists hate those that exploit the working class - where does he say those richer than themselves?

All anyone who wants to help "the poor" has to do is give up their excess wealth. You don't need to be taxed to do that. You don't need anyone else to empower you before you do it and you don't need the state either or its powers of coercion either.

I abhor the negative view Corbyn has of the UK, of millions of downtrodden paupers exploited by his “elite” who all exploit them and dodge taxes.

FUCK OFF

It is not the case that all (arbitrary measurement here) “ wealthy” people fit this stereotype.

It is not the case that his “many” are all living in poverty. Too many, yes. Not a majority."

 

From the Equality Trust; Wealth in Great Britain is even more unequally divided than income. In 2016, the ONS calculated that the richest 10% of households hold 44% of all wealth. The poorest 50%, by contrast, own just 9%.

With an explosion in food banks, stagnant wages, zero hour contracts leading to women giving birth in toilets, increasing homelessness, in-work poverty at record rates, and 70% of DWP decisions overturned on appeal (with people declared being fit to work, but dying before the receive the letter) and with merciless sanctions for those who miss appointments, you are really living in a different world if you think your sentiments are justified.

People who are in the top 1% to a large extent did not get there solely on merit. They had lots of help, and when they 'made it by themselves', they didn't really - they rode on the governments educational programme, infrastructure programs and legal structures and many more beside. They also rode on the back of the working class (in the clasic sense) by exploiting their labour for their own profit and not sharing the wealth properly. 

If lots of people think like you, we might as well just wait for the impending climate catastrophe to administer a death sentence to everyone because at least then we'd finally be equal.

The Tories are a brexit death cult. Labour is a party for people who favour left wing social and economic policy. Hope this clarifies.

“It is not the case that his “many” are all living in poverty. Too many, yes. Not a majority."”

What the fuck sense is this statement supposed to make?

Loving the Orwell quotes Blue I

minkie - I agree re horrid rhetoric but at the end of the day is there a nice way to tax people more? Nobody ever pays more unless coerced. 

Yes, superb Orwell quotes all round. Where is that sort of intelligence and compassion these days?

Instead we have a hollowed out middle and hatred is now common currency. The language of the hard left is despicable, that of the frothers on the right unchecked. The left’s apologists such as laz are completely fvcking stupid if they can’t see what’s coming. As minkie said, they’re coming for our money. This is why Johnson will win.

Also, Swinson has totally blown all the capital the PV movement and centre had built up, in letting Bodger have an election. As pretty much every LibDem has in my lifetime.

 

 

Mate

I *want* them to come for your money!

1. Ask your wife how she’ll feel when they come for “your” money.

2. No-one’s getting any of my money FYI. Apart from noted friends and then only in liquid form.

 I thought I had made this clear, perhaps not.

it is not so much as about increased taxes. It is the DIVISIVE LABELLING I dont need

you said “it is not true to say many are in puberty. Some are, but not a majority”

that makes no sense. “many” does not mean a majority. 5% of the population is many 

‘it is not so much as about increased taxes. It is the DIVISIVE LABELLING I dont need’

on that basis, given your strength of feeling on the matter, you won’t be voting for a party led by a guy who described women in burqas as ‘letter boxes’ or gay men as ‘tank-topped bum boys’?

Big Barry:

yes the others do it too

and yes that is also annoying and  off putting

 

Unhappiness drives hatred - hatred drives voters

 

Barry - too right.

i find I am v busy on election day, I have no plans to vote.

Guy Crouchback31 Oct 19 22:27

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Sorry iguana he says middle class socialists hate those that exploit the working class - where does he say those richer than themselves?

I think if you drew a Venn diagram with 2 circles, 1 of people who middle class socialists say exploit the workers, and 1 of people richer than said middle class socialists, they'd pretty much overlap.  Anyway, enough of indulging you, Mr. Sealion, go and balance a ball on your nose or something.