Al Pacino is magnificent. And the attention to detail in the recreation of late 60s/early 70s US aesthetic makes it feel like a very careful period drama.
But it’s sort of a TV box set “Inglourious Basterds” approach to history and ethical questions.
A lot of fuss being made about the unnecessary invention of sadistic games at Auschwitz (on the basis that the truth is appallingly monstrous enough as it is, why provide deniers with a fictional account they can debunk).
Although a similar charge can be thrown at eg La vita e bella/Life is Beautiful and Sophie’s Choice and frankly anyone who takes what is obviously a fictionalised account as gospel is an idiot and deniers will denie anyway. The case for the defence is that it helps keep certain ethical truths in public consciousness and also, maybe, that the slightly graphic novel heroes and heroines of the Hunters give some agency to victims of the holocaust - that it wasn’t all about passive victimhood and the moral obligation to the dead is vigilance by the living.
Agreed Wellers.It is entertaining, but I am not sure that we should be lightly entertained by the topic. Mrs IMT and I have watched the first episode (are more available yet?) and she describes it as having the feel of a van helsing and could quite believe it was about vampire hunters. For me the production was akin to a Dr Who in the campness stakes and both the beginning and the end of the episode were particularly unbelievable. The actual history is sensational enough without having to be sensationalist.
A bit like Star Trek, perhaps best understood as a an oblique approach to exploring and expressing concerns about contemporary society and politics, rather than historical drama with some obligation to present realism (or - in the case of Star Trek - rather than sci fi with some obligation to present a scientifically credible vision of an alternative or potential future reality).
It’s possible that Pacino’s interest in Hunters is as a parable about infiltration of the right wing establishment by ultra-reactionary, fascist elements and their opposition by a racially, culturally and non-binary sample of liberal vigilantes.
It’s also possible that he was attracted by the ethical questions raised by the young hero about the price of political and moral purism and whether that is really acceptable if you’re espousing muscular liberal values - he has form for playing apparent idealists who are prepared to do grubby, even violent things for their ideals (see eg City Hall).
Possibly also by the read-across to the culture wars of an “enlightened” (radicalised) few engaging furiously with each other on either side while for mainstream society life goes on pretty much as normal in blissful ignorance.
they’ve made the nazis these cartoonish monsters. The truth is horrible enough so why invent new things.
most of the nazis involved in the Holocaust were very ordinary people (lots of them were lawyers iirc) One of the most terrifying things about it was the banality of evil
I enjoyed the obvious money spent on it and some of the performances are great (Not Logan Lerman's). It's very Tarantino-esque in presentation and quickly became torture pron. Not bothering with a third episode.
More tangentially, the Mitscherlich’s “The Inability to Mourn” is fascinating.
And Frankl “Man’s Search for Meaning”. An essential corrective to the above (written by an survivor of Theresienstadt who was a psychiatrist).
“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms — to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”
I thought it was discomforting and not in the right way. Also I find tv series with 1.5 hour episodes weird. Either make a film or make a tv series. I don't think we are ready for Holocaust based stories as mainstream thriller entertainment yet.
Wang - don't forget The Stranger (1946); Marathon Man (1976); The Boys From Brazil (1978); Hell Hunters (1988); Murderers Among Us: The Simon Wiesenthal Story (1989); The Man Who Captured Eichmann (1996); The Debt (2010); and Remember (2015).
Well done at googling BC. There may be other films about the Holocaust I would feel uncomfortable with too - but all the films I have seen are either serious drama aimed at showing the horror in a sober manner (eg Schindlers List or Boy in Striped Pyjamas) or chase/spy stories with the holocaust simply forming the backstory (eg Odessa file). Not seen a thriller with such unpleasant fictional set pieces from the Holocaust, clearly set up for grizzly entertainment, such as the human chess game in Hunters.
I've seen the ads but wasnt sure what it was. Is it a "glossy thriller"/ series? Is it all focused on the Holocaust? If so I don't think I can watch it
It is focussed on Nazi hunting in the 1970s but in a rather Tarantino style way and has flashback set pieces to fictionalised horrors in concentration camps.
Ah thanks GC, that helps. I'd seen some of the backlash but not sure what their issue is - I'm sure the "games" to decide who was shot etc isnt too far from the truth
Maid M, I think you need to see it for yourself to decide. There have of course been lots of stuff made about the Holocaust but I felt this was the wrong side of the line, but I think everyone will have to make their own judgment, clearly others on here think differently.
As an aside, I thought the series demonstrates just how good Tarantino is as what he does because despite obviously trying to adopt his style, they have only produced a very pale imitation.
I think I'd find it too difficult to watch TBH - I love a good cime drama but that theme is just too awful to enjoy watching. I think the idea of a series on nazi hunters is a unique one though and would enjoy that bit, just not the flashbacks - just too awful to watch.
I was reflecting on whether I see things differently now I’m a parent. I was of course aware that parents were separated from children in the Holocaust and sometimes killed with or in front of them but the really horror of that never quite hit home until I was watching this series
"I was reflecting on whether I see things differently now I’m a parent. I was of course aware that parents were separated from children in the Holocaust and sometimes killed with or in front of them but the really horror of that never quite hit home until I was watching this series"
We watched Schindlers List recently having both seen it before. Wife couldn't keep watching after the liquidation of the ghetto scene and I found it considerably harder than when I saw it the first time pre-kids.
Watched the first 2 last night and I really liked it. It's a bit xmeny but so far I don't think it is worse than other things I have seen re the holocaust (including the xmen one with Kevin bacon)
It doesn’t make me uncomfortable at all. I don’t really understand the points being made above. I think it’s a good show without being really great. The occasional intense, brutal seriousness of it sits oddly with the camp tarantino/ blaxploitation stylings. But not in an “inappropriate” way, just a. little jarring.
I know its books not tv but if anyone wants a gritty, cynical, irreverent take on the nazis (and sometimes nazi hunting) which is also well researched, i reccomend Philip Kerr's novels with the Bernard Gunther character.
0
0
No
0
0
Is it about waterproof boots?
0
0
No but I just saw a trailer and will watch it
0
0
It’s making me a bit uncomfortable.
0
0
Worried they're coming for you, Wellers?
0
0
It’s an odd watch.
Al Pacino is magnificent. And the attention to detail in the recreation of late 60s/early 70s US aesthetic makes it feel like a very careful period drama.
But it’s sort of a TV box set “Inglourious Basterds” approach to history and ethical questions.
A lot of fuss being made about the unnecessary invention of sadistic games at Auschwitz (on the basis that the truth is appallingly monstrous enough as it is, why provide deniers with a fictional account they can debunk).
Although a similar charge can be thrown at eg La vita e bella/Life is Beautiful and Sophie’s Choice and frankly anyone who takes what is obviously a fictionalised account as gospel is an idiot and deniers will denie anyway. The case for the defence is that it helps keep certain ethical truths in public consciousness and also, maybe, that the slightly graphic novel heroes and heroines of the Hunters give some agency to victims of the holocaust - that it wasn’t all about passive victimhood and the moral obligation to the dead is vigilance by the living.
I enjoyed the show, but I agree it’s unsettling.
0
0
Agreed Wellers.It is entertaining, but I am not sure that we should be lightly entertained by the topic. Mrs IMT and I have watched the first episode (are more available yet?) and she describes it as having the feel of a van helsing and could quite believe it was about vampire hunters. For me the production was akin to a Dr Who in the campness stakes and both the beginning and the end of the episode were particularly unbelievable. The actual history is sensational enough without having to be sensationalist.
0
0
...and agreed Jack (typed my post last night and forgot to post until the morning).
0
0
A bit like Star Trek, perhaps best understood as a an oblique approach to exploring and expressing concerns about contemporary society and politics, rather than historical drama with some obligation to present realism (or - in the case of Star Trek - rather than sci fi with some obligation to present a scientifically credible vision of an alternative or potential future reality).
It’s possible that Pacino’s interest in Hunters is as a parable about infiltration of the right wing establishment by ultra-reactionary, fascist elements and their opposition by a racially, culturally and non-binary sample of liberal vigilantes.
It’s also possible that he was attracted by the ethical questions raised by the young hero about the price of political and moral purism and whether that is really acceptable if you’re espousing muscular liberal values - he has form for playing apparent idealists who are prepared to do grubby, even violent things for their ideals (see eg City Hall).
Possibly also by the read-across to the culture wars of an “enlightened” (radicalised) few engaging furiously with each other on either side while for mainstream society life goes on pretty much as normal in blissful ignorance.
0
0
Wot jack said,
they’ve made the nazis these cartoonish monsters. The truth is horrible enough so why invent new things.
most of the nazis involved in the Holocaust were very ordinary people (lots of them were lawyers iirc) One of the most terrifying things about it was the banality of evil
0
0
Largely wot Jack sed.
I enjoyed the obvious money spent on it and some of the performances are great (Not Logan Lerman's). It's very Tarantino-esque in presentation and quickly became torture pron. Not bothering with a third episode.
0
0
I’m into ep 6 so will probably stick with it.
if nothing else it has triggered me to do some more reading on the Holocaust
generally I find the Holocaust a tricky topic because the scale of human tragedy is just so immense
0
0
Assume you’ve read Primo Levi, Wellers?
If not, do.
Eichmann in Jerusalem worth reading as well.
More tangentially, the Mitscherlich’s “The Inability to Mourn” is fascinating.
And Frankl “Man’s Search for Meaning”. An essential corrective to the above (written by an survivor of Theresienstadt who was a psychiatrist).
“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms — to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”
0
0
I thought it was discomforting and not in the right way. Also I find tv series with 1.5 hour episodes weird. Either make a film or make a tv series. I don't think we are ready for Holocaust based stories as mainstream thriller entertainment yet.
0
0
Schindler's List - 1993
The Odessa File - 1972 (film 1974)
Otherwise great point Hank you Plank
0
0
Schindlers List was not a glossy thriller it was a drama - there are plenty of those, it is a shame you are not subtle enough to see the difference.
0
0
Wang - don't forget The Stranger (1946); Marathon Man (1976); The Boys From Brazil (1978); Hell Hunters (1988); Murderers Among Us: The Simon Wiesenthal Story (1989); The Man Who Captured Eichmann (1996); The Debt (2010); and Remember (2015).
Hollywood just won't touch the subject.
0
0
Boys from Brazil was a great film
0
0
Guy has had a shocker here in that there are loads of holocaust related films.
But I agree with him in that the portrayal of it in this series makes me quite uncomfortable but can't quite put my finger on why
ps only the first episode is 1.5 hours, the rest are 1 hour
0
0
Well done at googling BC. There may be other films about the Holocaust I would feel uncomfortable with too - but all the films I have seen are either serious drama aimed at showing the horror in a sober manner (eg Schindlers List or Boy in Striped Pyjamas) or chase/spy stories with the holocaust simply forming the backstory (eg Odessa file). Not seen a thriller with such unpleasant fictional set pieces from the Holocaust, clearly set up for grizzly entertainment, such as the human chess game in Hunters.
0
0
I've seen the ads but wasnt sure what it was. Is it a "glossy thriller"/ series? Is it all focused on the Holocaust? If so I don't think I can watch it
0
0
Heh! at "grizzly entertainment"
All the bears sat around a telly watching jews getting shot one at a time: " ' bit dark this, innit, eh?"
0
0
It is basically a Pulp Fiction style story of some holocaust survivors and their friends getting revenge on Nazis living in the US.
So it isn't set during the holocaust but has frequent, and gratuitous, flashbacks to the camps
0
0
It is focussed on Nazi hunting in the 1970s but in a rather Tarantino style way and has flashback set pieces to fictionalised horrors in concentration camps.
0
0
Ah thanks GC, that helps. I'd seen some of the backlash but not sure what their issue is - I'm sure the "games" to decide who was shot etc isnt too far from the truth
0
0
..no matter how horrifying it is
0
0
Maid M, I think you need to see it for yourself to decide. There have of course been lots of stuff made about the Holocaust but I felt this was the wrong side of the line, but I think everyone will have to make their own judgment, clearly others on here think differently.
0
0
As an aside, I thought the series demonstrates just how good Tarantino is as what he does because despite obviously trying to adopt his style, they have only produced a very pale imitation.
0
0
I think I'd find it too difficult to watch TBH - I love a good cime drama but that theme is just too awful to enjoy watching. I think the idea of a series on nazi hunters is a unique one though and would enjoy that bit, just not the flashbacks - just too awful to watch.
0
0
I was reflecting on whether I see things differently now I’m a parent. I was of course aware that parents were separated from children in the Holocaust and sometimes killed with or in front of them but the really horror of that never quite hit home until I was watching this series
0
0
Only Googled to check the dates, Guy - have seen every one of those films.
0
0
(Robert Duvall in The Man Who Captured Eichmann and Helen Mirrren in The Debt are particularly great performances and both films worth a look btw)
0
0
OK BC, look this is rof so it is de rigeur to make sweeping statements but truth is I just felt Hunters was a bit wrong and made me uncomfortable.
0
0
"I was reflecting on whether I see things differently now I’m a parent. I was of course aware that parents were separated from children in the Holocaust and sometimes killed with or in front of them but the really horror of that never quite hit home until I was watching this series"
We watched Schindlers List recently having both seen it before. Wife couldn't keep watching after the liquidation of the ghetto scene and I found it considerably harder than when I saw it the first time pre-kids.
0
0
Fair enough, Guy. Highly recommend those two films if you haven't seen them. And The Odessa File and Marathon Man, obv.
0
0
Watched the first 2 last night and I really liked it. It's a bit xmeny but so far I don't think it is worse than other things I have seen re the holocaust (including the xmen one with Kevin bacon)
0
0
Given up half way through episode 3.
Interesting idea but basically so slow and tedious.
Who would think they could make a series on hunting down Nazis boring...?
0
0
It doesn’t make me uncomfortable at all. I don’t really understand the points being made above. I think it’s a good show without being really great. The occasional intense, brutal seriousness of it sits oddly with the camp tarantino/ blaxploitation stylings. But not in an “inappropriate” way, just a. little jarring.
0
0
I know its books not tv but if anyone wants a gritty, cynical, irreverent take on the nazis (and sometimes nazi hunting) which is also well researched, i reccomend Philip Kerr's novels with the Bernard Gunther character.
0
0
Bernie Gunter books are a rof favourite, second only to Lee Childs greatest creation
Join the discussion