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Let your next career move come to you.

He was obviously a colossal twit...

https://abc7ny.com/viral-video-man-grabs-wig-manhattan-caught-on/133346…

But losing his job and facing assault charges seems extreme?

Agreed 

If it was the other way round, it would not have been a problem 

Must happen all the time in clubs and stuff - seen it in fancy dress parties enough times 

God I hate fancy dress 

"What he gave to me was definitely violence, definitely disrespect. So, he devalued me, he took my confidence away in that moment."

Or he was just a bit of a dick...

And this comment from the young lady:-

""What he gave to me was definitely violence, definitely disrespect. So, he devalued me, he took my confidence away in that moment.""

You what?  I totally get that it was annoying and embarrassing, because she would have been left with just her wig cap, and that isn't a good look on anyone, but "violence"?  And "devalued"?  Love, if your self esteem is so fragile that it can be shaken by someone doing something so infantile, then you have bigger problems than you know.

going to a fancy dress party is one thing - walking down the street minding your own business and a random person snatching something off your head is quite another

Can’t believe I’m going to disagree with Cru for once…

I think a lot depends on the job in question. If it had been a cop I’d expect the same outcome and I think that a solicitor who works with the law can’t be seen to casually break it and expect to go back to work on Monday.

Not sure about the US but it would count as an assault over here although I would hope for a community resolution myself which would mean an apology (which she wants) and nothing permanent on your record.

a stranger pulling the wig off a Black woman as she’s walking down the street feels racially motivated to me (or at least i can understand why she might feel that way)

completely different context to someone pulling the wig off someone in fancy dress in a club

and if the chap’s a lawyer i can understand why he might face repercussions at work (though i think the assault charge is a bit much tbh)

Clearly what she wants first and foremost is her 15 minutes of fame. Which she has now got in spades. 

I don't actually really have a problem with the guy losing his job and it's clearly a (very minor) assault. If that was all it was he'd find another job, grovel to the judge and pay a fine and move on having learned a sharp lesson. The problem is it's all over the fvcking internet and was on television news (god it must have been a slow news day!). Which will fvck his life up for a long time (particularly given the determination of some to find a race angle).  No firm is going to hire him in the immediate future... 

 

well i dunno if he was drunk or something donny but if you choose to pull the wig off a Black woman in the middle of the street i don’t see how you avoid the “race angle” (and the “misogyny angle” ofc but people seem to care less about that for some reason)

I think there's a difference between pulling a wig off someone where it looks like their actual hair and pulling off a huge green wig that is obviously a wig.  My response would be very much to call them a dick and move on.

I have only seen a few seconds of the video but he is pretty clearly completely out of it. If I had to guess I would say he had taken significant advantage of the relatively recent legalisation of pot in NYC... 

There is no suggestion I have seen that he said anything racist or misogynist or indeed said anything at all to the young woman in question.

My understanding is that it isn’t simply snatching off something like a toupee - a wig is typically attached quite tightly to the head, so there is quite a lot of force needed to pull off a wig and that’s reflected perhaps in her comments that her head was pulled right back?

It is a clear assault and not as minor as some people would have you believe - eg I would compare it to forcefully pulling a person’s dreadlocks backwards in the street.

Donny’s comments re 15 mins of fame is disgraceful frankly. The reason why people do this is mainly because there is zero trust in the police to do anything.

Is she wearing a green wig in the video like the still? Got to be easy enough to avoid being automatically dragged into a racism story if the lady in question is wearing a green scouser wig?

also I note the various attempts to play down/dismiss what happened by introducing new stuff

”he must have been under the influence” - does that excuse it?

”must happen all the time in clubs” - yes but this wasn’t in a club - it was in the street

”My response would be very much to call them a dick and move on.” - yes but that’s not what matters here, is it? 

 

Jim 100% correct here

 

 

I once went to an event where they gave out limited edition caps and for the rest of the night people kept taking mine off my head and actually trying to steal it (long story but there was actually a quite lucrative resale market for them) but I never considered involving the police.

And:

1. No, being under the influence doesn't excuse it.

2. I entirely agreed with Jim that it was an assault, that it was right he was charged and that I didn't think even losing his job was unduly harsh.

What I didn't see was a race or gender angle because there is absolutely no evidence of either. 

I also don't think it's particular fair that his life be ruined over what appears to be a drunk/stoned bit of stupidity. 

A toupee is attached to basically velcro strips stuck to your skin so rather more painful to have pulled off than an elasticated wig that simply sits over your own hair.

I've been subject to other forms of theft too although they generally involved threats with knives and not having clothing pulled off so not really relevant.

I once went to an event where they gave out limited edition caps and for the rest of the night people kept taking mine off my head and actually trying to steal it (long story but there was actually a quite lucrative resale market for them) but I never considered involving the police.

at a summer camp I was at when I was 17, several of the boys thought it would be hilarious to go around grabbing the girls’ bra straps and flicking up their skirts

never went to the police 

What I didn't see was a race or gender angle because there is absolutely no evidence of either. 

what do you mean? 

she’s a Black woman - that’s the “angle”

you can’t honestly think he had to be shouting racial or sexiest abuse for there to be a race or gender “angle” can you?

Chill, mate, is there any minority on whose behalf you don't feel you can speak?  Her wig was green and curly, it looked like a clown's wig, and she is paler than he is (I actually thought he might be Hispanic from the video).  If it was a "real" hair wig, then maybe there might be some chance that there was more to it, but chances are that he saw some silly looking hair, and decided to behave like the douchebag he seems to be and pull it off.

why are some people so determined to ignore context when making a judgment on something?

pulling the wig off a Black woman on the street is different to pulling the wig off a white man on the street (or in a nightclub)

just like punching a nazi (like richard spencer) is different from punching a gay man (like owen jones)

not everything is the same!

I think there has to be some indication that her race or gender played a motivating part in his actions before people jump to the conclusion he was motivated by her race or gender. Don’t you? 

 

Re the force needed to pull a wig off : that was actually what I was expecting her to go on to complain about, he could very easily have hurt her, and certainly, I can understand the shock and pain would have made her lose her sh1t with him.  I remember a clip where some jokester in a nightclub decided to pull the wig off the head of a celeb, you could see that it hurt like fvck, and her instinctive reaction was to turn around and slap him hard.  And everybody cheered.

"pulling the wig off a Black woman on the street is different to pulling the wig off a white man on the street (or in a nightclub)"

Honestly, "listening" to you to claiming knowledge and understanding of this sort of stuff is so irritating, it makes my teeth itch.

i wasn’t really responding to you cru, it was more davos up top saying “If it was the other way round, it would not have been a problem”

yes probably! different things are different!

Honestly, "listening" to you to claiming knowledge and understanding of this sort of stuff is so irritating, it makes my teeth itch.

you think they’re not different?

bollocks, you’re just reflexively taking a position against me cause i annoy you

Punching a nazi is the same as punching a gay man if I have no idea that one is a nazi and the other is gay and I'm punching them for some other reason.
 

heh, beautiful 

Thats not what cru is saying chill and i think you know it. Sorry fam but you come across as touristing through other peoples lived experience and claiming empathy and ownership of those experiences. 

a stranger pulling the wig off a Black woman as she’s walking down the street feels racially motivated to me

Difficult to argue this when the wig is fooking green.

Sorry fam but you come across as touristing through other peoples lived experience and claiming empathy and ownership of those experiences.

i don’t even know what that means tbh gwan 

i’ll definitely “claim” empathy (whatever that means) but not ownership

what i’m saying is pretty obvious - assaulting a Black woman is different to assaulting a white man

assaulting a nazi is different to assaulting a gay man

there are elements of racism, misogyny and homophobia pervasive throughout society that allows a person to feel justified or able to do one but not the other

i honestly don’t even see how that’s controversial

(i also don’t understand what you mean by “touristing” by pointing this out, but ok)

lol sorry does anyone think pulling the wig off a Black woman and pulling the wig off a white man are the same thing and should be treated the same way?

would be more fun to hear someone explain why they disagree rather than a pile-on over nothing

just like punching a nazi (like richard spencer) is different from punching a gay man (like owen jones)

SO IT’S SUDDENLY OK TO PUNCH NAZIS NOW IS IT?

YOU MAKE ME SICK!

I'm really not sure what the black / white has to do with it when it comes to wigs specifically - I think that any woman wearing a wig, whatever colour the woman is, is going to be embarrassed, maybe even humiliated, depending on what's underneath, and where she is at the time, if someone pulls her wig off (but feel free to educate me some more about the experiences of black womanhood, so I know what I'm getting wrong).  I also think that someone knocking the toupee of a white bloke's head might be even more humiliating, as it goes.

As far as this particular incident is concerned, I do think that there is a good chance that a drunk / high bloke dude bro pulling a bright green, cork screw curled, acrylic clown style wig off a woman in the street might just have thought that it would be "funny", and that his fellow dude bros would join the laughter with him.  I mean, I know that they are completely "other" to you, but even you know that black people don't routinely have green hair, right?

cheers for responding cru

I think that any woman wearing a wig, whatever colour the woman is, is going to be embarrassed, maybe even humiliated, depending on what's underneath, and where she is at the time, if someone pulls her wig off 

yes agreed - that’s the misogyny of it

I also think that someone knocking the toupee of a white bloke's head might be even more humiliating, as it goes.

completely disagree but ok

As far as this particular incident is concerned, I do think that there is a good chance that a drunk / high bloke dude bro pulling a bright green, cork screw curled, acrylic clown style wig off a woman in the street might just have thought that it would be "funny", and that his fellow dude bros would join the laughter with him

sure - and my point is that a large part of the reason he likely thought it would be “funny” is cause she was a Black woman and all the weight that goes with that

or look - maybe i’m wrong and he would have done the same to an asian man wearing a similar wig (though in that case thinking about it there may be homophobic undertones)

my main point is pulling the wig off a Black woman is different than pulling the wig off a white man and you can’t compare the two directly - do you disagree with that?

I mean, I know that they are completely "other" to you, but even you know that black people don't routinely have green hair, right?

god really? thanks for the info!

“maybe i’m wrong and he would have done the same to an asian man wearing a similar wig (though in that case thinking about it there may be homophobic undertones)”

You can’t stop yourself, can you? You invent another hypothetical situation where no evidence would be there for hate crime and decide to make it a possible hate crime.

It’s attitudes like this that make a mockery of the McPherson definition of hate crime and make it so useless.

You know there are other motivations for committing crime other than an “ism/ic” one don’t you Chill? What is your evidence that his motivation was anything to do with race rather than “Cor look, there’s a big green wig, wouldn’t it be a laugh if I pulled it off?”

What is your evidence that his motivation was anything to do with race rather than “Cor look, there’s a big green wig, wouldn’t it be a laugh if I pulled it off?”

i’m not a judge jim and so don’t give a tug what his motivation was (i’m also not accusing him of a “hate crime” and don’t think the assault charge is particularly fair)

what i’m saying (again!) is that pulling a big green wig off a Black woman and pulling a big green wig off a white man are two different things

pulling a big green wig off a gay man is different from pulling a big green wig off a gay woman

pulling a big green wig off an indian man is different from pulling a big green wig off a northern gammon

early in the thread (before the obvious pile-on) there was a bit of a tendency to say “well it would have been different if she’d pulled a green wig off him” or “where’s the racial angle” and i’m saying - the racial (and misogynist) angle is obvious 

everything we do - everything you do, jim - is permeated with racial, patriarchal, capitalist, heteronormative etc undertones even if you don’t realise it (sails)

again, i didn’t realise this was particularly controversial

“i’m not a judge jim and so don’t give a tug what his motivation was (i’m also not accusing him of a “hate crime” and don’t think the assault charge is particularly fair)”

“a stranger pulling the wig off a Black woman as she’s walking down the street feels racially motivated to me”

“a stranger pulling the wig off a Black woman as she’s walking down the street feels racially motivated to me”

yes it does - and i’ve explained why multiple times

i also wasn’t accusing anyone of a hate crime and said this in the same post:

though i think the assault charge is a bit much tbh

i’m talking about motivations not criminal liability, i thought that was obvious

“i’m talking about motivations not criminal liability, i thought that was obvious”

The thing you don’t give a tug about? Looks like you give quite a tug about it after all - it was the reason you first posted. Maybe you give a mass debate?

oh i see

when i said “i don’t give a tug what his motivation was” i was responding to this of yours jim:

You can’t stop yourself, can you? You invent another hypothetical situation where no evidence would be there for hate crime and decide to make it a possible hate crime.

It’s attitudes like this that make a mockery of the McPherson definition of hate crime and make it so useless.

from a moral / judgment perspective i don’t think you can get away from the motivations, but i don’t think there’s any real criminal issue

also tbh i think you’re overreacting there to what i think is a fairly banal point (our capitalist society is inherently racist, misogynistic and homophobic, you can’t get away from it)

🤷

If it was motivated even in part due to race it is a hate crime. That’s just a fact based on the definition of hate crime from MacPherson. Therefore, speculating on his motivation is part of deciding whether it is a hate crime or not. It’s very lazy and, I would hope you would agree, utterly unprofessional for anyone working in law, to draw conclusions around motivation for crime without even the slightest bit of evidence to support it.

So, I’ll ask again, “What is your evidence that his motivation was anything to do with race rather than “Cor look, there’s a big green wig, wouldn’t it be a laugh if I pulled it off?”

like - every interaction you have with a Black person jim will have some racial undertones 

every interaction you have with a woman will have - not “misogynistic” - but some patriarchal undertones 

every interaction you have with a gay person will have some heteronormative undertones

this is the case even if (especially if) you’re deliberately trying not to be biased

but this is moreso if you’re pulling a big green wig off one of them

i don’t really see how that’s controversial 

we’re talking about two different things 

i don’t give a toss about the macpherson definition of a hate crime and don’t really think the chap should have been charged for assault

It’s very lazy and, I would hope you would agree, utterly unprofessional for anyone working in law, to draw conclusions around motivation for crime without even the slightest bit of evidence to support it.

really? good job i wasn’t doing that then

transphobia is misogyny and homophobia clive, they’re lucky enough to get the double on that

(and if they’re a racial minority and not able-bodied - oof they’ve won the crown!)

Heh.

You agree this was a crime (even if you don’t think it warranted a charge)

You repeatedly assert that the reason for this incident (which we agree was a crime) was probably due to race.

You spectacularly fail to provide any evidence to back up your assertion.

You cannot see how this in fact means that you are saying this was a hate crime yet have no evidence to do this.

And you wonder why I am confused.

You repeatedly assert that the reason for this incident (which we agree was a crime) was probably due to race.

erm no i didn’t

i said pulling a wig off a Black woman feels racially motivated to me

to be clear - i didn’t say that was the “reason” he did it and i don’t think it matters

winking at a Black barista in Starbucks can be racially motivated

promoting a Black guy to senior associate can be racially motivated 

and yes of course pulling a wig off a Black person on the street (whatever the colour of their natural hair) can be racially motivated 

 

(and to be clear:

winking a gay barista in starbucks can be motivated by heteronormativity

promoting a gay person to senior associate can be motivated by heteronormativity 

and pulling a big green wig off a gay person can be motivated by heteronormativity

 

feel free to reproduce the above for able-bodied, patriarchy, cisnormativity, class-based prejudice etc)

these are all power structures we naturally interact with constantly throughout our lives

you can’t ignore them and you definitely can’t flip them and say “but where’s the evidence it had anything to do with the fact she was a woman or Black”

the evidence is baked in, as it were

“i said pulling a wig off a Black woman feels racially motivated to me

to be clear - i didn’t say that was the “reason” he did it and i don’t think it matters”

Definition of motivation: “a reason or reasons for acting or behaving in a particular way.”

heh

jim stop being a prat we were getting on so well

why a dictionary definition - i’m talking about societal context 

again - i think we’re talking about two completely different things!

 

ffs ok i’m gonna do this one more time and then i’m giving up because this seems so obvious to me and everyone’s either trolling me or just doesn’t get it

jim - i can’t think of an equivalent type of assault off the top of my head but for the sake of argument:

you are in a crowded bar at 11pm, everyone is hammered

person a slaps person b on the arse while waiting to be served (let’s assume they’re strangers)

do you think there is any difference if:

  • person a is a white man and person b is a white man
  • person a is a white man and person b is a white woman
  • person a is a straight man and person b is a gay man
  • person a is a white straight man and person b is a Black gay woman
  • person a is a cis man and person b is a trans woman
  • person a is a straight asian man and person b is a straight asian woman
  • person a is able-bodied man and person b is disabled

or do you think there is no difference at all?

again, i’m not talking about criminal liability or “hate crimes”, i’m talking about power differentials and motivations

Ummmm - this is not what we’re arguing about chill.

Do you think motivation for an act = reason why you did it?

That’s my point.

If not, what do you mean by motivation?

i explained this at 19.36 i thought

every interaction you have with a Black person will to some extent be racially motivated (and with a woman be patriarchally motivated, which everyone has apparently ignored)

this goes double if you’re pulling a wig off them

of course you might be drunk and think “cor a green wig, it’d be funny to rip that off”

but if your actions are then different if you see a Black woman (or an asian woman, or an hispanic woman) vs a white woman, that’s racially motivated

that doesn’t mean i think the chap saw a Black woman in a wig and that’s the “reason” he ripped it off

(and similarly if the chap saw a man in a green wig and thought “cor it’d be funny to rip that off”, but only actually did it to a woman - of any race - in a green wig, that’s societal misogyny in action)

(P.S. for your above bits to be correct, as Sails pointed out ages ago, you have to presume some belief in the perpetrator. S/he must believe that the person they are interacting with is black/female etc otherwise your argument is null and void).

sure

Do you think motivation for an act = reason why you did it?

yes in the bald dictionary definition you’re framing it

i’m talking about underlying racial or sexist (or homophobic or transphobic etc) factors for why people do anything

in which case no of course not

someone can have racial motivations for doing something - giving x candidate a job over y candidate, or slapping someone on the arse - without that being the “reason” they did it

but then we’re just parsing words aren’t we?

do you understand my basic point?

or are we just trying to tun cru up now?

S/he must believe that the person they are interacting with is black/female etc otherwise your argument is null and void

sure i get that, but here the Black woman was walking down the street while Black, so i sort of assume he’d have understood that

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