Have you ever in your life seen anything more embarrassing

than this?


Brexit MEPs turning their back on Beethoven's Ode to Joy.




what a bunch of ignorant louts

I always thought Anne Widdecomb was a nasty piece of work

Yes - Ivanka Trump trying to get world leaders to talk to her at the G20 summit.

Oh jesus effing christ.  How utterly childinsh and ignorant.  

My family and I walked past Ann Widdecombe on Christmas Day a couple of years ago and she completely blanked our "merry Christmas", always known since then she was a wrong un.  

Wonder if any of them will turn their backs on their salaries, expenses and pensions.

I have long said that the EU should offer us two deals: a worse one and a better one which is conditional upon Nigel Farage and the rest of the UKIP lot forfeiting their EU pension entitlements.

The Lib Dems turning up shortly afterwards in bright yellow t-shirts with "stop brexit" on them is a close second. They look like they're dressed for It's a Knockout. 


The whole country needs switching on and off again. 

To be fair the sheer fvcking narcissistic chutzpah of a glorified trading block (i) having an anthem at all frankly; and (ii) deciding they get to claim perhaps the greatest piece of music ever composed which reflects on the sources of joy in the human condition as that anthem is pretty fecking embarrassing.

But yeah the Brexit MEP's are a bunch of khunts.

The tweets by the Brexit party MEP complaining it took 4 trains to get from Ipswich to Strasbourg was pretty funny 

presumably he would prefer the European Parliament was in Ipswich. Unclear what with them not having a manifesto but I'd be for it. 

"Yes - Ivanka Trump trying to get world leaders to talk to her at the G20 summit."

I have only watched this with the sound off as it looks so cringe 

Yes the fact that Boris Johnson, international laughing stock and charlatan is about to become our Prime Minister is more embarrassing.

deciding they get to claim perhaps the greatest piece of music ever composed which reflects on the sources of joy in the human condition as that anthem

Heh. Steady on. It's definitely not the greatest piece of music ever composed.

"Yes - Ivanka Trump trying to get world leaders to talk to her at the G20 summit."

In fairness she probably does not usually struggle to get middle aged men to talk to her...

Brits Talking about chutzpah... whatever. Just bugger off will ya

Did you see the Brexit party torch lit rally, complete with air raid sirens?

fucking bonkers. 

I enjoyed the air ride sirens, those portents of wanton, stupid destruction and the deaths of innocents, heralding Farage's arrival on stage.

yes, the Brexit rave found a level I didn't even know existed. 

My family and I walked past Ann Widdecombe on Christmas Day a couple of years ago and she completely blanked our "merry Christmas", always known since then she was a wrong un.

Clare Short on the other hand is funny, relaxed and dead friendly. Nothing like the sourpuss she’s portrayed as


The state of them, and the fucking state of this thread. 

Brexit Party held a rally where people carried torches and there were air raid sirens??

Not so much a rally as a haunted pig carcass rave.

It was a very American-style affair, in some kind of conference centre.  Almost as if it had been cooked up by someone familiar with the Trump routine.

Quite right too.

I went to a talk once and the Europhile twat played this at the end and encouraged the audience to stand and hold their hearts.

I walked out in disgust. 


"What is disrespectful is to take the ancient nation states of Europe and without asking anyone's permission turn it into a country. I'll show respect for any anthem of any other country in the world, but...I don't recognise a state called Europe."


Without anyone’s permission - you had a referendum and voted to join 75%

The US running concentration camps on the southern border is also pretty fucking embarrassing.

James Melville tweeted: “Britain is in an era of demagogue populism and xenophobia"

Reminiscent of a Nazi torchlight rally

One has the feeling, as with the financial crisis, that there is no adult in Parliament to explain wtf is going on. Certainly no one willing to go toe to toe with Farage and put him down

It's all sound bites and spin 

I have seen my cat mid winkie clean

It is embarrasing for both of us

I say "george do it in private ffs"

he looks at me with eyes that say "my bad, mea culpa... but i bet u wish u could do this"

and I say "you'd let me if i gave u a tin of tuna..."

with apologies to mr billy conolley

It really comes to something when a lifelong conservative like me thinks that the communist party (let’s not deny it) would be more fiscally responsible than the Conservative party who have now lost all credibility.  

Without anyone’s permission - you had a referendum and voted to join 75%

Look, I’m a remainer but I don’t think the idea was the join a United States of Europe. It was a trading bloc but has become much more than that, which is a lot of people’s problem with it. Hell, I have a problem with that angle but appreciate that it’s better to be in than out. Being dismissive and saying things are black and white when there are grey areas is unhelpful especially when we need to minimise the aggressive language between the two sides on this debate. I get that you, as a German, have an ongoing righteous indignation (and I understand your angle) but you shouting at us from the mainland whilst we are trying to deal with this clusterfuck is incredibly unhelpful. 

I think it is sensible to show you my indignation, otherwise brits might think it’s all fine and dandy

TBF i think DDK's know nowt spout owt campaign is funded by his contacts in the edl

And frankly , who apart from my self uses aggressive language on the European side. On the British side you have all sorts of very aggressive, war-like language from even your next pm , from Brexit ministers („the enemy is out there“), from the press, you have WE2 themed Brexit party rallies...and so forth. In Germany nobody uses aggro language in relation to the UK. Albeit people are now a lot more dismissive, but I mean come on, what do you expect

Ode to Joy is the anthem of the Council of Europe. It was later adopted (albeit I think informally) by the EU or at least the European Parliament: it would have been adopted formally had the European Constitution been successful. 

as you will all recall the Council of Europe was Winston Churchill's idea, and was founded by the Treaty of London in 1949

by turning their backs Brexit MEPs were showing a lack of respect for European culture, the Council of Europe and Winston Churchill's dream

or maybe they were just showing themselves as fuckwits


When I talked about sides I meant the Brexiteers and the Remainers here, I don't really care about the dialogue from yourselves, tbh. We are dealing with something internally, which I know impacts you, but it impacts me a lot more, so....

u know churchill was a bit of a belle fromagouise right heff?

DD as an Anglophobe why do you spend all day every day on a British forum?  Alternatively, if you say you are not an Anglophobe but are keen to show brexiteers the error of their ways or the anger/disbelief of normal Europeans at British behaviour, why not go to post your righteous indignation on a forum populated by brexiteers rather than a predominantly remain site?

 brexiters populate eg Verhofstadt fb page at every opportunity. I do tell them off there, too

It’s a bit like going to the Chelsea forums and badmouthing spurs tbf.  

Leave.eu deletes my posts

Tbf, so would a lot of people here if they could. And not just Brexiters.

Well if you go that way your posts might also be affected innit

Maybe so, but at least I don't go on a board for German lawyers and spend all day talking about how stupid Germans are.

Don't you have better things to be doing with your time? I thought you had a hot young girlfriend and a stash of cocaine.

Isn't the point here that the expectation is to stand for the national anthem, like you would for any normal country, and so as Europe is a country by deceit rather than consent, they wanted to draw attention to this farce of national anthem standing?

lolz: that probably is the point they are trying to make, yes

the fucking idiots

Seriously, who cares if the EU has a flag or an anthem?

I think the actual answer to LP's question is: some people care and other people don't care

but whether one cares about an anthem or not, to turn backs when it is being played is wantonly rude and disrespectful and makes the Brexit MEPs look like what they are: fucking idiots



They had a political point to make and they've made it

it's not something I would do but it's an important point

Answer to your question Penelope is the EU cares...

OK, let me rephrase. Who the fuck gets angry about the EU having a flag and an anthem?

I voted leave and I think this is toe-curlingly, excrutiatingly embarassing.  Awful.

what's an important point, Lolz? Being gratuitously rude to our friends and neighbours who have treated us admirably fairly? And, moreover, upon whose kindness we are now dependant as, like King Lear, we give away all our power and influence. 

I said it wasn't something I would do 

but they're making a point about statehood and building a state by deceit not consent 

They're making a point about how they are all tedious fuckholes.

"by turning their backs Brexit MEPs were showing a lack of respect for European culture, the Council of Europe and Winston Churchill's dream"

As for European culture, they weren't turning their backs on Beethoven, they were turning their backs on how his work has become bastardized into a propaganda tool.

And I couldn't give a rat's *arse about the Council of Europe or Churchill's dreams.

The whole thing is a disgrace. It makes a mockery of nation states, which of course is the whole point.

they were turning their backs on how his work has become bastardized into a propaganda tool

I don't turn my back on Parry just because William Blake's poetry has been completely hijacked by exactly the kind of flag waving hypocritical, self-serving cretinous fuckwits he so despised.

The whole point?

I thought the underlying points were to avoid a European war again and form a trading bloc that could stand up to America, but now I understand clearly that the whole thing was just a massive practical joke.

Perhaps Dux is under the impression that just because politicians in the UK aren't interested in doing anything except waging pointless ideological battles rather than actually doing something useful, that the EU is the same and was set up for that purpose.

"to avoid a European war again"

No, that's NATO

"form a trading bloc"

No, that was the EEC

Once again your intellect overpowers me. Neither of those points were even considered in founding the EU.

Your sharp forensic analysis demonstrates that it was just a secret massive jape at the expense of nation states by persons unknown.

Yes because military alliances alone proved such an effective barrier to European war.


Every time I read your posts I feel like I'm getting more stupid by digital osmosis.

Dux, do you even know what a nation state is?


Do you realise that Europe has no history independent nations states? The EU wasn't formed by a bunch of independent nation states getting tog ether, it was formed by fading empires trying to stay relevant in the world.

The UK was a nation state for a couple of decades tops, between empire and member of the EU.

This fucking ridiculous fantasy of that syphllitic turbotwat Faridge needs to stop.

Surely a country is a nation state even while it has an empire? 

I think DD needs a good Clergham to help him relax.

No, a country that has an empire is an empire. A nation state is a country that is made up primarily of a homologous nationality/ethnic group. It is questionable whether the UK has ever been a nation state. It joined the Council of Europe in 1949 and was an empire until at least then.

France? Empire not a nation state

Belgium? Empire not a nation State

Italy? Empire not a nation state

Netherlands? Empire not a nation state 

Germany is really the only European power that was a nation state following WWI, but it's invasion of Ukraine was designed to change that.

Ah yes, that famous Luxembourgish empire. Who could ever forget it?

Germany is a federation of states that was not even thought of as a country until reasonably recently

"Europeans are paying a price for believing in their own myth. With the furies of Brexit and the future of the European Union up for debate, proponents of the European project are burdened with a creation story that bears little resemblance to historical fact.

Whether they are friends or enemies of the EU, Europeans believe in the fable of the wise nation. According to this narrative, European nation-states have a long and rich history. In particular, these nation-states learned from World War II that war is bad, and so bound themselves together in its aftermath in peaceful cooperation.

Friends of the European project like this fairy tale, because it tells a story of learning and progress, and confers a sense of superiority over Americans. But enemies of the EU like this narrative just as much, because it suggests that the nation-state was always present and was the agent that made decisions. If a nation-state chose to enter the EU, they reason, it can choose at any moment to exit.

And yet the fable of the wise nation is false. The history of the nation-state in Western and Central Europe is practically nonexistent; in Eastern Europe, it is longer but hardly glorious. Nation-states in the Balkans set the stage for World War I, and in its aftermath six new nation-states were created in Eastern Europe, all of which had been removed from the map by the middle of World War II.

By 1945, European powers had not learned that war is bad. They kept fighting colonial wars until they lost them or were exhausted by them. Remember Indochina, Indonesia, Algeria and Egypt; Malaya, Kenya, Angola, Guinea, Mozambique and the Spanish Sahara.

It wasn’t nation-states that kicked off the process of European integration. It was fading empires, exhausted by their colonial efforts.

It’s no accident that Germany took the lead in the process. The country’s defeat in World War II was the beginning of the end of European colonialism. And because Hitler's Reich was the first European power to indisputably lose a colonial war — World War II, at its root, was a German colonial war for land in Ukraine — post-war West Germany was the leading agent of European integration.

Other Western powers soon followed. As keeping a hold on their empires became too costly, they found European markets and a European identity. From the 1940s through the 1980s, Europe withdrew from colonies to find itself.

Finding oneself usually means forgetting everyone else, and Europe was no exception. The fable of the wise nation displaced the history of empire. Germans do not remember World War II as a colonial war for Ukraine, and in this they are typical Europeans. Throughout Central and Western Europe, the history of colonial atrocity and retreat is displaced by the more pleasant after-story of treaties and peace.

The EU is the soft landing after empire. It has allowed Europeans to cheat fate. Think of it: Societies that fought two World Wars and lost far-flung empires have the world's highest standard of living. Usually the collapse of empire means the collapse of civilization. Europe managed to do the opposite: to preserve the reality and burnish the image of its civilization despite the collapse of its empires.

It is often said that European integration permitted democracy in Europe. This is true enough. But democracy for everyone subject to the power of a given state is not possible for an empire.

Perhaps most fundamentally, the EU has created a framework in which European states can exist. The modern European state was conceived as the core of an empire. It has survived as an element of an integration project. In most Western European cases, as in the United Kingdom, there has never been a moment where a nation-state has had to make it on its own.

Until now, perhaps. The case for Brexit rests on the premise that there is a British nation-state lying in wait, if you peel back the layers of European integration and revert back to a previous state of “independence.” Yet there has never been such a thing. The historical process of the loss of empire coincided in time with the historical process of European integration, creating the Britain that exists today.

The notion that a British nation-state can be created in the 21st century is thus not conservative, but radical. British society stands before a leap into an unexamined future.

Europe has prevented the dissolution of the British Empire from reaching the British Isles. Should Brexit take place, there will likely be no Britain, since Scotland and Northern Ireland will depart, but rather an England. This England will not have "exited" anything. English people will continue to negotiate with the EU, from weakness rather than strength.

Brexiteers imagine that England will somehow revive a British Empire. The options are indeed integration on the one hand and empire on the other, but the empires in question are no longer British. The EU insulates its citizens from the empires of today: China, America, Russia; Amazon, Google, Facebook. Should Brexit take place, today's Brexiteers will be tomorrow's agents of foreign empire. Some of them already are.

The historical function of the EU is to gather together the fragments of failed European empires. To forget this basic historical truth, as Europeans — and Britons in particular — have managed to do, is to risk the very form of life that they take for granted."


Supes the person you have stolen your bollocky point from is talking bollocks

*points at the load of bollocks regurgitated by supes supra*

To think I wasted my bog break reading that utter tripe.

I think the real question is why these entities, call them what you will, would have signed up to an organisation which (per dux) had the sole point of making a mockery of them.



There were some sort of shadowy supranational group of people working within the various members actually plotting towards this end?

Dux, do you have any thoughts on this?

Of course this group would need to be enormously well connected in the media to pull this off. Oh and finance of course. 

Dux, you got anything here? I’m drawing a blank.

Well, for starters the UK and before that England was probably a nation state before it created an empire. But more importantly, I think this article is trying to elide the concepts of sovereign state and nation state. Nation state is not a very helpful concept because the idea of a nation is nebulous and nobody agrees on a definition. You can have an empire and be a sovereign state. There is no reason to chuck out sovereignty just because your empire cannot shrink back to a state that coincides with a single ethnicity.