GOT - EPISODE 5 *spoilers*

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So Jamie hasn't changed after all these years, still a sister shagger

Honestly, who is writing this trash? I'm relieved the critics are piling in at last. It would be terrible for the future of television if they were allowed to get away with it.

Just want it to be over with now.

It feels like the writers spend more time sifting ideas on fan forums than anything else.

There is one episode left so now fully expect them to do the big Tyrion is a Targ plot twist to fuck us all off

Urgh, so predictable. So it ends with Danny as a Targ tyrant and inevitably Arya and Gendry will team up to take her down (a stark and a Baratheon) with Tyrion murdering her as the Lannister kingslayer, thus proving history is cyclical. No doubt it will turn out the NK will resurrect himself as well to repeat the cycle.

At least she started using dragons correctly, begging the question as to why she was so shit previously.

also where did all those Dothraki come from? I thought they were all but wiped out by the dead

An interesting watch but felt all kinds of wrong.

Dany is so getting bumped off. John, Arya or Tyrion will do the deed.

That guy needs to finish off writing the books and releasing them so that we get a half decent conclusion to all this.

It was a bit predictable and a tad silly in places but still a great watch

loved the Clegane Darth Vader reveal

Still haven't watched a single episode.

Star vs the Forces Of Evil also concludes next sunday, just like GoT. It's great.

I might watch GoT in future. Like, when I retire or something. Providing fit blond dragon lady survives. Otherwise, forget about it.

Jon being predictably useless... 

Just think if he had put out when Dany wanted some he could have avoided all those crispy people. 

What Scylla said at 15.05

Heh at all those complaining that Dany has turned into the mad barbecuing queen, she’s been doing that for the last few seasons

All the spoilers I read happened so I think I now know the ending 

At least she started using dragons correctly, begging the question as to why she was so shit previously.

 

This x 1000

The one scene in the whole episode which  I did like was Tyrion and Jaime...

Will be interesting to see what Tyrion does now he knows for sure that Varys made the right call. 

Also I wonder who in KL Varys was trying to smuggle the message about Aejon through his little birds?

What contacts did he have left in the city? 

Varys messaging the Iron bank who will be calling in their loans next episode I reckon 

Now I've seen it. Pretty much saw everything coming and setting up nicely for Arya to stick dragon momma with needle or some other sharp implement.

Also at the beginning was Varys trying to use the little kitchen girl to poison Daenerys? 

The whole ‘we will try again at supper’ line. 

 

Actually, Arya crying has given me hope that she regains love and affection and ends up with Gendry forever

Another dud for me. Technically impressive but narratively awful. The plotting has been so jarring and baffling this season that it feels like there's 2 episodes missing between each one that gets shown. 

Hated it. Does a complete disservice to Daenerys’ character and story in the previous 7 seasons. 

The writers should never have made her sleep with Jon in the previous season. Its almost as if the writers decided that it was a love story and then GRRM said “oh by the way chaps she’s actually his auntie “ and they could never reconcile the two. 

Jaime and Cercei a complete anti climax and makes his fling with Brienne in the previous episode even more ridiculous than when first viewed. 

Agree with Shatner, it looked fantastic and the soundtrack was excellent but the plot wasn’t up to the same standard - maybe if Rhaegal had been offed by a cheap shot after the bells had been rung rather than the previous episode things would have worked better 

Cleganebowl was great though

Also where was Yara? Euro was played for laughs. What was the white horse all about at the end?

Varys went from one of the most intelligent and skilled operators to just approaching 2 of Daenerys' closest allies and outright asking whether they fancied a cheeky bit of treason. It makes no sense. 

A consistent and sensibly written Varys would have have arranged for Daenerys to be killed on the sly and then convinced Jon that he owed it to her memory to rule. 

As Scylla pointed out Varys probably was trying to bump Dany off 

trying to spread the secret far and wide also makes sense for him

i think the white horse was the golden company bloke’s horse at the beginning? 

Directly approaching Tyrion and Jon makes zero sense

Thanks Queenie, that fits. Though as an aside The Golden Company were a bunch of fannies weren’t they? 

 

 

Queenie E13 May 19 11:42

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It was a bit predictable and a tad silly in places but still a great watch

loved the Clegane Darth Vader reveal

it matches up quite nicely with Darth Maul taking up a new part as the Night King

and now I think about it, a wise little man Yoda/Tyrion is also key to it all

and a wet hero - Jon/Aegon/Luke

oh god I think I’ve worked out the whole thing

I have come to the conclusion that a crap final couple of series of the TV show was exactly what GRRM wanted

he basically deliberately sabotaged the TV show by refusing to give them any decent material other than a really loose outline 

then he made sure it was the naffest of his plausible end scenarios

and now he can smash it with the books

As if he’s going to live long enough to get the next book out ffs.

Out of interest if Tyrion is a Targ is he more senior than Jon? Or vice versa. Also I assume she will try to fry him, when she finds out about Jamie’s release and the dragon will refuse to gasps of the surrounding crowd. 

Visually I thought last night was good but agree all a bit crap as a story and if that is the end of Jamie and Cersei what an anti climax.

If Tyrion is a Targ then he is the bastard son of Aery's and Joanna Lannister, so no, he doesn't outrank Aejon who is the true born heir of Rheagar. 

It would make him Dany's half brother and Aejon's uncle. 

Agree with other's about the seeming failures of Vary's rather direct treason approaches, however, it does make sense when you consider that Vary's sole goal was to avoid the imminent slaughter of King's Landing. Direct, swift and overt action was required. 

I also think they killed Rheagal in the last episode so that there would be no way that anyone (including Jon on Rheagal) could challenge Dany in the air or stop her. 

It rendered everyone, including her allies, absolutely powerless to her madness.

That part will be key to the finale even her closest ally i.e. Jon won't be able to tolerate that.

 

 

I thought cleganebowl was a bit crap in the end. He looked stupid when the helmet came off, like an undead Varys that had been on the roids.

They've rushed to the ending so much there's no sensible or nuanced character development anymore. Anything a character does now is to propel the creaking narrative to its end point as quickly as possible regardless of whether it actually makes sense for the character or the plot. When they got ahead of the books they had a load of loose ends and were told the main points of the ending but they've absolutely shat the bed in terms of connecting them.

You can see that the main points could be very satisfying if they had been properly plotted and foreshadowed more than half an hour in advance. But they weren't - Daenerys just snapped and Jaime undid 7 series of character development in 30 seconds for no sensible reason.

They needed at least one more series, possibly 2. The narrative is just weird and jarring now and plots/characters have been dropped or rendered pointless as a result. When was the last time Jon or Tyrion really did anything proactive rather than just sort of exist as the plot marches on? What was the point of Bran? He may as well have died when the assassin was sent for him in s1, he's ultimately done nothing despite all the characters telling us of his importance for several years.

I rewatched this scene after the last episode, it's like watching a completely different programme https://youtu.be/xpBBueLih_k

Dany as mad queen could have been more plausible with a bit more foreshadowing.  The jealous looks in Ep.4 and comments about not being loved were clearly meant to echo Viserys's jealousy of her, and there's been plenty of times when she has been almost demonstrated a god complex, but the idea of her completely snapping wasn't mapped at all.  

I agree that this could work very well for GRRM, and that he gave them enough to satisfy his basic obligations to the show but no more.  I also suspect he's agreed not to say in public that the books will end differently whilst the show is running.

There is a rumour that he'd some kind of stitch up not to release any more books until the show is done too.

heh @ people moaning about pacing / character development etc. It's a fucking tv show not a book. Some people seem to be demanding a never ending epic which explores every minute facet of the made up world. If you just sit back and watch it as entertainment rather than totally overthinking it, it is actually quite enjoyable.

People bang on about how amazing the Wire was for example, but actually season 5 was fairly shite as well. Just view it in its totality.

but the idea of her completely snapping wasn't mapped at all

I don’t know about that. Even right back at the beginning nice, gentle Dany burnt the Lamb witch alive. A few episodes on and she locks a handmaiden who betrayed her in a vault to starve / suffocate. 

She has always had a vicious streak for vengeance. 

I’m re-watching now and I do like the foreshadowing of a destroyed throne room when she is rescuing her dragons from the wizard.  

Tyrion is a Targ

Is this actually a theory? Total bollocks of course.

Point of order mr chairman - series 5 of the wire was really rather good.

Even the plot twists such as Omar being killed by a random kid whilst buying some gaspers were believable and entirely in keeping with the tone of the show - ie even if you are Omar it is super dangerous in the projects.

but the idea of her completely snapping wasn't mapped at all

I don’t know about that. Even right back at the beginning nice, gentle Dany burnt the Lamb witch alive. A few episodes on and she locks a handmaiden who betrayed her in a vault to starve / suffocate. 

And watches her own brother die, the only family she has ever known, and all she has to say about it was 'he wasn't a dragon...  fire can't kill a dragon'.. 

Also, she has burnt loads of people alive throughout the series. In Meeren, the Tarlys, Varys even where she didn't have too.

And a singular favourite past time of the Mad King's was doing just that, though he had to use wildfire since he didn't have a dragon. Dany was in fact conceived the very night he burnt Ned Stark's father alive in the throne room because that shit turned him on so much he raped his wife.  

So there was plenty of hints throughout that she wasn't exactly hesitant to BBQ her perceived enemies. 

The potential for madness was always there it just took the right circumstances to ignite the flame. 

 

 

what arbiter said - Dany has always been completely mental! Where have those complaining about this been for the last 7 years?!

and what Wellington said - it's top telly. Can't wait for next week then I'm going to go back and watch the whole thing again.

I thought Cersei's demise was apt, even if it was a bit silly that half-dead Jamie made it to her

Tyrion is a Targ

Is this actually a theory? Total bollocks of course.

 

It is a long standing book theory and is in fact quite plausible. The evidence for it in the book series is almost as solid as the evidence for Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rheagar. That said the evidence for it in the TV series is fairly scant and I would be surprised if they spring this one now. 

I’ve always voiced doubts about Danerys.  As Scylla says she killed her own brother (horribly) right at the outset and has shown little or no mercy in the pursuit of (her own, rightful!) thrown on the basis that she’s a goodie really.  

But agree with everyone else on the plot/character holes in the last couple of series.  If you compare the dialogue in, say, Dianna Rigg’s death (Whatshername Tyrell), it’s worlds away from the current stuff.

Tyrion is a Targ is not going to happen in the TV show although may in the books of course.

Of course in the books they have yet another additional Targ roaming around with his own army.

"So there was plenty of hints throughout that she wasn't exactly hesitant to BBQ her perceived enemies."

Yeah, but never innocents. She cried and locked her dragons up because they torched a kid. She always said "I don't want to be queen of the ashes" etc. There's a huge leap from flambéing your enemies to torching every innocent man, woman and child in the streets. Her previous burnings were a bit much, but they were all in pursuit of her ideals. Crucifying the slavers was a militant expression of her commendable aims in freeing and protecting the innocent. To go from that to massacring innocents with zero justification is ridiculous. 

The Mad King was at least paranoid and delusional. None of that has been set up with Daenerys. It's just as if she's a bit narked off so decides to bbq everyone for no reason.

She was showing some signed of paranoia and starting to look a bit unhinged, but you are right it was a bit of a leap when she started torching everyone. When I was watching my thought was that she was going to torch the troops who surrendered.

It’s all just so very rushed.  They have taken the extra four episodes HBO offered them so as to be able to manage these changes in people better.  As it is, we just got pushed along the train tracks into seeing characters that we know do things which while possible just aren’t particularly believable because they’ve not spent sufficient time showing the transformation.

None of that has been set up with Daenerys. It's just as if she's a bit narked off so decides to bbq everyone for no reason.

But this is just back to the general complaint of this season being rushed isn't it?

She has always been a bit mental with a very black and white idea of right and wrong and her side and the other side.  The transition from there to willingness to burn down King's Landing has been handled abruptly and poorly - but the potential was always clearly there.

My memory for details is appalling but I'm sure Varys has made comments previously warning that he hopes she is just but there is no certainty. 

There's a huge leap from flambéing your enemies to torching every innocent man, woman and child in the streets.

See I don't think there is.

If you kill someone you are committing murder, even where you think you are a Queen and that you have the right to sentence people to death without a trial.  Dany has become used to killing people for no reason other than that they refused to bend the knee. (see the Tarlys) and the calmness with which she executed Varys certainly showed no hesitation in ending any and all opposition. 

Also the whole point of view of Dany from Drogon was that these 'people' were just ants beneath her and in the throne room at Dragonstone she compared them disparagingly to the slaves in Mereen who opened the gates to her and loved her. 

So she didn't see them as innocents, she saw them as the people who had stood by and allowed her father and her family to be murdered and who had then defied the chance to rise up in support of her claim to the throne.  She saw them all as her enemies. 

Also even her father started out as a benevolent ruler and only went mad over time.. Targaryens are absolutely renowned for their mental instability this has always been a fundamental part of the story and her character. 

 

 

Thing is, she’s always had that inner psycho, but now all her close advisors are either dead or being ignored she isn’t being restrained anymore.  She isn’t Dany the ruler, she is Dany the Destroyer and that won’t work in Westeros.

"See I don't think there is.

 

If you kill someone you are committing murder, even where you think you are a Queen and that you have the right to sentence people to death without a trial. Dany has become used to killing people for no reason other than that they refused to bend the knee. (see the Tarlys) and the calmness with which she executed Varys certainly showed no hesitation in ending any and all opposition."

That is of course true in modern society but not in the context of the quasi-medieval universe of the show. Summary judgment is pretty common - Ned beheads a bloke within the first 20 minutes.

The people of KL were no opposition. She had previously expressed a desire to take the 7 kingdoms with minimal loss of life even whilst threatening Varys she would burn him alive if he betrayed her and well after crucifying people etc. In her mind there was a clear difference between executing people who had wronged her and killing civilians, even if they were only collateral damage which others might justify. In order for her to torch them now in a direct act of mass murder she would have to have changed to be seriously deranged or outright malevolent. Neither had been sufficiently set up to be convincing. 

I saw someone make the point elsewhere that all the people who decided to be ‘interesting’ and call their daughters ‘Khaleesi’ must be feeling a little foolish now.

Neither had been sufficiently set up to be convincing.

It had for me; I think she's a twat.

plus about every other character banging on about her potential madness (as well as her demonstrating it) for the last 7 years

I'm amazed that people think this is an out of the blue character development

What Queenie said. 

It says so much about people that the expected stereotypes seem to blind them to what’s really going on. 

Just how much latitude do we give someone morally when we consider them the ‘good guys’... 

Danys been a dangerous piece of work for a long time.. she has completely disrupted and destroyed at least 4 entire civilisations and cultures before she even gets to Westeros..

All Cersei ever tried to do was protect her children her greatest ‘crimes’ were blowing up the Sept and murdering Robert’s bastards. 

Dany nuked Astaphor, Meereen and Yunkai and has destroyed the entire leadership and social structure of the Dothraki all while presenting herself as a savior... Westeros was never going to accept her as a saviour. 

She realised that at Winterfell even where she was an actual saviour they refused to treat her as such. 

Hence the if she couldn’t make people love her... she would make them fear her. 

She crucified a load of people without trial, she has always been vindictive

"Danys been a dangerous piece of work for a long time.. she has completely disrupted and destroyed at least 4 entire civilisations and cultures before she even gets to Westeros..

All Cersei ever tried to do was protect her children her greatest ‘crimes’ were blowing up the Sept and murdering Robert’s bastards."

This is a very skewed summary of the first seven seasons

How so Diablo? 

Give your reasons for claiming so, what truly terrible things did Cersei do? 

Or do we count being unfaithful to an oafish and abusive husband as worse then setting people alight? 

Also.. please note that my whole point above is exactly what you have pointed out.. that we have an entirely skewed version of events depending on who we perceive as the good guys and the bad guys. 

People have always perceived Danearys as the hero of the story so they forgave her an awful lot more than they ever forgave Cersei. 

Imagine if the night king left a message that said “dear Robert, bit worried about this dragon girl so just popping down with the boyos to make sure she can’t attack kings landing, your friend NK.”

I am not disputing the events.

I just think it does Dany an enormous disservice to paint her as some terrorist who has gone around uprooting society for her own personal gain where there has always been context to her actions. Usually people who got burnt deserved it (in Game of Thrones land - not real life) or she was liberating a long suffering race. To the extent she executed generals I would say it was analogous to Jon Snow and Rob Stark's previous executions. Her brother sold her into slavery so I am not sure why we are now looking back at his death and using this against her.  If she was so awful then why did she travel north to face the Wights when she really didn't have to?

I can accept that there are signs that she is going mad in previous series but the writers did not do nearly enough to get her to her actions in the most recent episode. If you think they did then fair play but the write ups in Telegraph and Guardian shared my disappointment. To just reduce her whole story to "mad father" renders her so one dimensional.

As for Cercei - interesting hypothesis (genuinely) that she only does things to protect her family. I guess I have never itemised her cruelty but I always got the impression that power was her main motive. She was certainly willing to sacrifice the whole of kings landing to keep it at the end.

 

I never called her a terrorist who has gone around uprooting society for her own gain. 

I said she was a dangerous piece of work.  

And as for Cersei being prepared to sacrifice the whole of Kings Landing for the Iron Throne... well so was Dany.. and she has been quite  vocal about that for some time. 

Team Diablo on this one.

People didn't perceive Dany as the hero and therefore forgive her.

They perceived her acts as justifiable and therefore saw her as a hero. The reason she is no longer seen as a hero is that what she has just done was totally unjustifiable.

Signed, Captain Obvious.

Cersei has lived a life of privilege and behaved like a murderous cunt.

Dany was sold into slavery and did what she had to to survive in a land where murderous cunts were the norm not the exception.

Take blaming her for the death of Viserys, someone did above. Viserys was a madman holding a sword to her pregnant belly. Drogo murdered him, she couldn't have stopped it. But yeah, otherwise good point. Ok she was cold about it but what choice did she have? Would it have increased her chances of survival if she had been weak at that point?

I don't think anyone would claim Dany did everything for personal gain (though she gets increasingly power hungry) but it is all a case of her knowing best and a very black and white view of the world.  That gets very dangerous very quickly as it 'justifies' an awful lot.

I think the executions point there has always been the Ed Stark view of the world - if you're going to order an execution you should be the one to carry it out so it doesn't get too easy.  Dany has been finding it way too easy to mutter a word and have someone turned into a torch to set an example of why everything has to be done exactly as she says.

And on Cersei I'm pretty sure she gave Ed the chance to just go back to Winterfell didn't she?  Even when he pushed the issue (which would have meant the death of her and her children) she was pushing her son to spare Ed and go with the sensible option.  Query whether that was more about avoiding war than doing the right thing - but it wasn't a "burn anyone who disagrees with me" approach to power.

And I thought lots of the really bad things aren't necessarily directly attributed to her are they?  Its her son that orders the murders of the bastards I thought (or at least there was a suggestion) and I'm not even sure if she's the one behind the drunken husband hunting plot. Even if she is its arguably at a point where she is getting desperate over the threat of her secret being revealed.

She starts the series in an incredibly vulnerable position and I'm not sure any of what she does really does go beyond trying to deal with people who are actively trying to bring her down.  Arguably she could have fled - but then she's in a world where all the Targ children were murdered and rulers think nothing of killing everyone who might have a better claim to the throne than them.  I don't think I'd feel comfortable in her position that someone else wasn't going to come along and murder her and her children as revenge / to remove the risk that her kids tried to assert a right to throne.

I’m playing devils advocate of course as I made clear above. 

But I genuinely don’t think it’s as clear cut as all that. 

I suspect if you rewatch the series now, knowing that she loses it and goes nuts, then you’ll see the warning signs a lot sooner. 

For me her flipping out on Drogon was both horrible acting and completely out of keeping with her character arc. Saying she had a mad father 100 times is not character development.

As someone said above, if they had had Rhaegal die in this ep, and Dany flip out as a result, it would have worked infinitely better.

Not sure we're really disagreeing... not saying it's out of keeping with her character, just her character arc. There were at least a few missing episodes between disappointed Dany and the mad queen, if not a missing season.

Yeah as with most of the sudden changes to character’s personalities this season it feels very rushed.  However in dany’s case it’s less a change in personality and more just acting without being held back by her advisors anymore.  They could have padded it out but I’m not sure I could live through an hour of her sulking around corridors while Jon keeps refusing to shag her (madman).

arbiterofgoodtaste14 May 19 08:56

I don’t know about that...

She has always had a vicious streak for vengeance. 

 

Scylla14 May 19 09:07

And watches her own brother die, the only family she has ever known, and all she has to say about it was 'he wasn't a dragon...  fire can't kill a dragon'.. 

 

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying she wasn't vicious, or vindictive, or a but too burny.  I'm saying that there isn't another instance where she lost her rag and then lashed out - every time she's done the burny stuff or crucifictiony stuff, she's been cool, calm and collected.  She's never snapped.

 

 

 

And FWIW since 1.10 and the equivalent point in the books, I've thought she was definitely the antagonist, not the herp.  I just don't think D&D knew that.

Well they probably did as they sat down for a week with GRRM before filming began.  But I think it has been setup and a lot of people emotionally invested as having the beautiful blonde heroine etc.

I also think that this is game of thrones and they like their twists and surprises ... it’s hard to surprise people when you’ve given them two seasons of slow unwinding to madness..

Orwell I get where you are coming from. But my point is that when someone can calmly flambé someone for reasons they think are just then there’s not much holding them back from doing it on a massive scale when they lose their shit. 

Dany has never had a problem killing people. Never had a moral issue with killing as and when she felt it was justified. She has never had a problem putting people to death for whatever reasons she felt were justified. Jon on the other hand clearly struggled even to execute the men who had killed him.

With Dany she always made a ‘judgement’ about people which was  always based on her personal black and white view of the world and her sense of entitlement to rule. 

Undermine that view even in the slightest and a lot of people fall into the fire. 

 

Scylla, reckon if he’d given her a bit of nephewD she’d have still toasted all those innocents?

I don’t know.

Even if he had I don’t know that it would have been enough .... because no doubt Jon would have then done the whole bang her and then sulk about it. 

But I do suspect that it was at that point that  Danearys lost all hope of having the kind of future she wanted. 

Dany has always wanted love and family, safety and security. Jon was her last chance at that.

It was then she made the choice between love and fear. 

 

Oh totes agree that was the moment.  Kinda makes me uneasy with the writing though.  What, just for the sake of a dead man’s dick she might not have gone totally loco?  Not the best of feminist role models at that point.

I think the problem with Danerys irrespective of the weight you give to her conduct is that her version of the greater good always involved her and only her sitting on the Iron Throne and the two have become inseparable for her.

It wasn't about dick Teccers, it was about having one person in the whole world left, after she had lost everyone else. 

As Maester Aemon said right back in Season 1, 'a Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing,' and at that moment Dany found herself completely and utterly alone, bereft of everyone she had ever known or loved. 

 

It's a shame she just didn't ship over that sellsword she was shagging. Or did he die?

Except her newly discovered nephew...  She wasn’t alone, and ok maybe shagging his aunt was a bit of a mistake but he should be able to get past that.

Except her newly discovered nephew...  She wasn’t alone, and ok maybe shagging his aunt was a bit of a mistake but he should be able to get past that.

Yes but he kept rejecting her. Every time they snogged he'd get grossed out. So she felt like she was alone. He had family and friends and was loved by everyone. She was not so popular and she'd just lost Jorah. She basically had Tyrion and even he was getting jumpy.

Agree about the twists and surprises. But its a basic misunderstanding of how they are done well. The Red Wedding. That brilliant trio of chapters where Tyrion crossbows Tywin, Littlefinger chucks Lysa out the moon door, and... one other. Can't remember.

One of the beauties of this series of books/tv show was its ability to utterly shock you with something which had been developing on a slow burn for ages and you should have seen coming. Hence the obsessive predictions game everyone plays.

This - not so much.

Spurius. 

I agree that the pacing and character development over the last 2 seasons has not been as good as the first 6. By a long shot.

However, we need to remember that each one of those 6 season was based on a book that GRRM spent at least 5-6 years writing. Yes 5-6 years on each book. 

They just didn't have the time, or the talent, to finish at the same standard. 

But to say that Dany going nuts like this is out of character I just don't agree with, it may not have been handled as well as we would have liked but it has been coming for a long time. 

‘When my dragons are grown we will take back what was stolen from me, destroy those who have wronged me, lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground’ ...

A pretty solid Daenerys mission statement right there really. 

And as ever Jorah acting as her tether ... 

I particularly liked the ‘ah.. so you are a true Targaryen’ comment that comes straight after. 

Like he has pegged straight away that she is one of THOSE Targaryens ... 

Scylla14 May 19 19:14

Orwell I get where you are coming from. But my point is that when someone can calmly flambé someone for reasons they think are just then there’s not much holding them back from doing it on a massive scale when they lose their shit. 

I completely agree with that (anyone who thought she was the good guy hasn't been paying much attention). I'm saying the losing the shit bit that wasn't developed at all.  She's never lost her shit - even when she absolutely should have.  It has been cold blooded mass murder to date.  It wouldn't have take much for them to signal it either, even if this season.  It's just shit writing.

Teclis14 May 19 19:30

 Not the best of feminist role models at that point.

Why are so many people today saying this (not just you Teclis - I've had other blokes make the same comment in discussions).  Since when has she been held up as a feminist role model?  She has been an unbalanced, torturing, murdering tyrant for some time now.

The popularity of her name amongst children perhaps suggests that she is seen at a more shallow level by some sections of society.  At that point, she’s a sort of aspirational, supercool warrior princess.  Who wants the D from Jon snurrr and when she doesn’t get it she goes and wipes out half a million non combatants. Hmm.

Actually the plot character fault in respect of Dany, Varys and Tyrion is not in this series.  It was when Varys became convinced she was different and that bringing a foreign army and Dragons to Westaros would mean the "realm" would live happily ever after - He was far too wily a fox to ever believe that - as was Tyrion.  Varys seemed to recognise that a reluctant leader was better than a meglomaniac - why then did he spend so long trying to help a megalomaniac?

That's a really interesting take Guy. 

I have to agree that with Varys it does seem odd that it took him so long to see her for what she truly is and cut ties but I actually think Tyrion is in love with Dany and as a result also sees her through the same rose coloured glasses that Jon does. I think this is the reason that he hasn't slept with anyone else in three years as he confesses to Jaime. 

Critically,  in the books Vary's is actually supporting the other Aegon Targaryen (the supposed other son of Rheagar with the Martell wife that Varys claims he spirited out of KL before the sacking of the city by the Lannister forces) and Tyrion hasn't yet even met Dany so its hard to know if this is just another area where the TV show has done a disservice to the characters and the original story. 

But Varys supported Daenerys because what other option was there other than Cersei? He just wants 'the best ruler for the realm' and there's not many candidates left.

that's why he was so excited when he heard about Jon Snow's true parentage and dropped Dany like  hot rock.

Well that is a fair point Queenie, but I did think at the time Varys apparently idealistic view of Daenerys as sold to Tyrion seemed very odd given (a) his character and (b) her character.

I believe everyone agrees they should have taken the extra four episodes, that the plot is imperfect since following the books as much as they were able ceased to be an option, that overall the series has been great, and that if there are no continuing storyline books ready and waiting the writing of an earlier history has let everyone down.

Daenerys:

As I recall she is 14 (?) when she enters the books.  Appallingly, used and abused by her brother (notwithstanding the Targ history) she finds, she believes, love with her Dothraki and naturally accepts her brother's death (reap what you sow).  Daenerys is constantly learning and growing over the next few years, developing her philosophy and discovering that even those of us who believe that most people are inherently good have to recognise that principles are betrayed under mild pressure.  D cannot reconcile that her 'right' to the throne does not override the remembered horror and fear of previous Targ rule (how will Jon fare when revealed as a Targ?)  Unloved by all and abandoned even by Jon she determines that much as she does not wish to kill 'innocents' the only way to ensure her rule is to ensure everyone fears her.  The 'innocents' have stupidly not welcomed her and, unfortunately, must be sacrificed to create that overwhelming fear.  D's decision was to her a political expedient, justified as she will be a wonderful, benign ruler.  I am surprised that D herself has not suggested to Jon that they marry?  Does anyone know whether or not either of them has a stronger claim than the other?  Perhaps someone who has read the history I am not reading until the 'real' books conclude.  

and also the fact that Varys would then bet on Jon Snow also shows a lack of judgement -

Jon Snow would be a terrible ruler!

Varys' 'those that don't want it can be more effective' is just bollocks

but then we are constantly reminded of Tyrion's cleverness but he has made some shit decisions too.

The only character left in the entire thing capable of sitting on the Iron Throne is Sansa

You are probably correct, Sansa could do it.  They could rewrite history to make Sansa virginal.  No worthwhile character to marry though?  Steal Gendry from Arya?  Although what is happening in Dorne??  If they brought my favourite character, the wildling "Ygritte", back from the dead she could stiffen up Jon Snow (sic) into a ruler.  A ruler cannot be great unless they leave behind a competent successor/found a successful dynasty - discuss.  How many of those remaining can bear/sire children?