A genuine question for ROF's trans champions
Hotblack Desiato 02 Aug 21 15:35
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Anorexics sincerely, consistently, deeply believe that they are fat and overweight. This belief drives them to harm themselves and sadly, even to kill themselves. 

Trans people sincerely, consistently and deeply believe that their gender differs from their biological sex that they are really a "woman" when their genitalia and hormone levels say "man" or vice versa. This belief drives them to kill themselves (as we are often told by trans activists) or to carry out surgical procedures involving cutting off parts of their bodies.

How, if at all, are we as a society to distinguish between anorexics on the one hand and trans people on the other?

 

Genuine answer - one group has issue over their weight and the other group has issues over their sex / gender.

I mean if you can't tell the difference you definitely shouldn't be a doctor (/ allowed to drive / use sharp instruments).

HTH

"How, if at all, are we as a society to distinguish between anorexics on the one hand and trans people on the other?"

By:

1. laying off the weed

2. not drawing unhelpful ill-conceived parallels

?

the result of anorexia is malnutrition and, ultimately, death - it is therefore quite obviously an illness that needs to be cured, accepting anorexia as a life choice isn't an option.    HTH

Genuine answer - one group has issue over their weight and the other group has issues over their sex / gender.

So you are saying that issues over weight are somehow not real but imagined, whereas issues over sex/gender are real but not imagined? If so, why? In both cases the beliefs are honestly and deeply held - what, if anything, is the quality that anorexia lacks that gender dysphoria has? 

The medical community have long accepted trans people as a normal human variation.  For a guy who whines a lot about people making stuff up and being irrational about drugs, you should think about practicing what you preach. 

Maybe you're the one with the problem, not trans people?  

the result of anorexia is malnutrition and, ultimately, death - it is therefore quite obviously an illness that needs to be cured, accepting anorexia as a life choice isn't an option.    HTH

So there is a level of thinness which is objectively bad, irrespective of what the person thinks about that level of thinness? Why is the same not true of sex and gender? 

Why is a desire to cut off your genitals not obviously an illness which needs to be cured?

 

I have it on good authority that Laurel Hubbard still has a penis. I think with modern medicine it is possible to have these things removed without gangrene and death but maybe people like to hold onto these parts for sentimental reasons. 

The medical community have long accepted trans people as a normal human variation.  

Firstly, there is no such thing as "the medical community" with a coherent and consistent view on this subject. There are ranges of medical opinion, including medical opinion which regards most trans people as suffering from a mental illness.

Secondly, length of acceptance of a doctrine tells you nothing about its correctness - if it did, we would still label homosexuality as a mental illness, which we do not, because that was the dominant view of homosexuality for most of Western civilisation.

One wonders if the tech existed to transition properly whether you'd still characterise them as mentally ill. 

As things stand we just have to do the best with what we have to ameliorate their situation. I accept that bottom surgery shouldn't be carried out but anything up to that seems to affect outcomes positively. 

Secondly, length of acceptance of a doctrine tells you nothing about its correctness - if it did, we would still label homosexuality as a mental illness, which we do not

Hotblack staring the answer in the face and coming to the completely wrong conclusion.

SHOCKA!

I think you're allowed to call trans a disorder! You'd be castigated. 

But just because one is not allowed to call being trans a mental disorder does not mean that it is not a mental disorder, does it? It either fits the characteristics of a mental disorder or it doesn't. 

A standard component of many mental illnesses or disorders, is delusional beliefs, i.e. fixed false beliefs that conflict with reality.

Presumably you would accept that an anorexic suffers from a delusional belief, i.e. a fixed false belief that conflicts with reality (i.e. "I am fat, even though you can see all my ribs and vertebrae").

Why is a fixed belief that one is a woman, despite having a penis and testicles, not a fixed false belief that conflicts with reality, and thus a delusion?

"So there is a level of thinness which is objectively bad, irrespective of what the person thinks about that level of thinness?"

Yes, because malnutrition kills you.

Rof Royalty02 Aug 21 15:57

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Secondly, length of acceptance of a doctrine tells you nothing about its correctness - if it did, we would still label homosexuality as a mental illness, which we do not

Hotblack staring the answer in the face and coming to the completely wrong conclusion.

SHOCKA!

So you're argument is that trans is not a mental illness because homosexuality is not a mental illness but anorexia is a mental illness?

So why is trans like homosexuality and not anorexia for the purposes of being a mental illness?

 

I think the person who sued the Tavistock Clinic for allowing puberty blockers in early teenage years - and won but the decision is being appealed - asserted that the medics at the Tavistock failed to take account of age and mental health issues in assessing treatment. 
 

"So there is a level of thinness which is objectively bad, irrespective of what the person thinks about that level of thinness?"

Yes, because malnutrition kills you.

But dying from malnutrition, or a desire to die from malnutrition cannot be objectively nor a sign of mental illness in all cases, because dying from malnutrition is currently what happens when we remove invasive feeding procedures from people, and you can sign a living will to not have invasive treatment such as feeding tubes in case of a stroke etc. Death by malnutrition may also be the consequence of a hunger strike, but  were the Suffragettes mentally ill, or indeed objectively wrong, to go on their hunger strikes in prison after being imprisoned for campaigning for the right to vote

So if they both lead to death by malnutrition, it cannot be the consequence per se which distinguishes between anorexia on the one hand and a living will/a hunger strike on the other in terms of whether they are objectively wrong or a mental illness, but rather some other quality.

Do you really need this explaining to you or are you pretending to be stupid because nobody can ever admit they are wrong on the internet?

Yes, I do need it explaining, to make sure that it is explicable.

 

Folks, that snap you just heard is the sound of HD breaking his arm as he pats himself furiously on the back for being so goshdarn clever and creative thinking and sh!t.

Choosing to kill yourself to make a political point by not eating is not a mental illness it is an extreme form of political protest. Believing you are too heavy and thereby not eating sufficiently even on the point of starvation is a delusion and a mental illness as nearly everyone who recovers from anorexia (and indeed many while they are suffering from it) acknowledge.

I'd be interested to see what the scientific evidence is for both the ideas that that transfolk suffer a psychological disorder and that they are genuinely physiologically different.

The last time I actually looked at medical studies on this when it was affecting someone I loved, the evidence was firmly in the disorder camp.  That was a long time ago though.

 

 

Yes, I do need it explaining, to make sure that it is explicable.

Will you read in good faith? I don't have much confidence that you are willing/capable.

Evidence: This thread, threads passim.

I'm not sure the idea that anorexics genuinely think the are fat is correct though.  Again, only on personal experience from someone I loved, it was more about control than body dysmorphia.  Happy to stand corrected.

 as nearly everyone who recovers from anorexia (and indeed many while they are suffering from it) acknowledge.

People who de-transition acknowledge that their trans beliefs were delusions. So if this is the litmus test, then surely you would accept that trans is a "mental illness", because people who "recover" from it recognise it as such: 

https://news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-young-trans-people-seeking-help-…

I dont mean, by saying they believe they are too heavy, that they believe they are "fat" Orwell.  Their mind is telling them they are too heavy even if that "too heavy" is in fact obviously painfully thin by comparison to others - even to them.

I dont know or care if trans belief is categorised as  "mental illness" because treatment is available (gender reassignment) which means they can live complete healthy and happy lives with it.   You cannot live a complete healthy and happy life with anorexia.

Choosing to kill yourself to make a political point by not eating is not a mental illness it is an extreme form of political protest. Believing you are too heavy and thereby not eating sufficiently even on the point of starvation is a delusion

So you agree that the difference between anorexia and living wills/hunger strikes is whether there is some objectively valid reason for the decision to risk or achieve death by malnutrition, with the anorexic lacking such objectively valid criteria but the living will and the hunger striker having such objectively valid criteria?

In which case, what are the objectively valid criteria for believing that you are "really" a woman when you have the genitalia and hormone levels of a man? 

That evidence of a delusion would surely only relate to the experience of those who've re transitioned. How can their experience be representative of those who have stayed transitioned? 

I understood what you meant Guy - and was referring to HD's original post anyway - but still not sure that is correct.  The person I know who was diagnosed realised she was thin at the end, but the control was too important to her and putting on any weight made her feel she was failing.

My view is a mental "disorder" is one that prevents you living a happy healthy life.  Otherwise it is not a disorder at all, simply a variation.    Were it not for the existence of gender re-assignment it may be that trans would be considered a "disorder"  because if nothing could be done that person would be destined to be unhappy.  As it is there is no need to treat it as a disorder but rather just treat is a a natural variation. Anorexia on the other hand will prevent a happy healthy life and therefore is disorder that should be treated.  

You cannot live a complete healthy and happy life with anorexia.

Depends on whether you believe that anyone ever really recovers from an eating disorder.  I take your point though.  That's why the "better" parallel is other types of states where people very strongly feel that they are something other than how they were born - like racial dysmorphia. 

Many refuse to consider this as a parallel because it is considered offensive, although I've never heard anyone come up with an argument grounded in scientific evidence.  

My cousin's view, FWIW for someone who has passed for 40 years, is that it is a psychological condition. 

My view is a mental "disorder" is one that prevents you living a happy healthy life. 

I'm not sure psychologists would agree with that. For a start, it suggests that the norm is to be happy, and there's some debate about whether that is the case. I only did psych for a year before I decided the pipes are always broken in a plumber's house, but IIRC the distinction was between norms and otherwise rather than the quality of life.

Also, not really sure this "natural variation" thing holds any water from a scientific point of view.  Lots of natural variations in physiology are connected with psychological disorders or rather unpleasant conditions.

in a few decades time people will be "transitioning" to animals. Born into the wrong species. If we somehow develop the technology to do this then according to Guy's argument being "trans-species" wouldn't qualify as mental disorder. HOnestly though The left will eventually need to find some other obviously weird thing to normalise or else they'll get bored. Might be paedophilia also. 

In which case, what are the objectively valid criteria for believing that you are "really" a woman when you have the genitalia and hormone levels of a man?

Why does it need to be objective criteria?

how we as a society define a “disorder” is very woolly around the edges and only useful as a term in certain applied circumstances 

is obesity a psychological disorder?

gambling addiction?

social anxiety disorder?

 

in a few decades time people will be "transitioning" to animals.

HOnestly though The left will eventually need to find some other obviously weird thing to normalise or else they'll get bored. Might be paedophilia also. 

These are the exact same arguments people used about legalising gay marriage. Same nonsense hotblack was pushing but in a different flavour.

It'S A SLipPeRY slopE mAn

Because psychology is the study of the mind, not about whether you can live "happily in society".  You can secretly think your shadow is your pet pink elephant and still be a happy and functional member of society (if you like elephants).

These are the exact same arguments people used about legalising gay marriage. Same nonsense hotblack was pushing but in a different flavour.

It'S A SLipPeRY slopE mAn

Well those people have been proved right, no? It hasn't stopped at gay marriage. Pretty reasonable to assume it won't stop with trans either. 

of course HD’s purpose in his op is to argue trans people have a mental disorder that should be treated as an illness like anorexia

but sure, whatever - im not a doctor

it anorexia could be cured or its symptoms lessened by something like hormone injections, or calling anorexic people by different pronouns, that would be *amazing* wouldn’t it?

It hasn't stopped at gay marriage.

EVER SINCE THEY LEGALISED GAY MARRIAGE I HAVEN’T BEEN ABLE TO STOP THINKING ABOUT TRANSEXUALS

I OFTEN LIE AWAKE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT THINKING ABOUT TRANSEXUALS AND THEIR PRIVATE PARTS AND I DON’T WANT TO BUT I AM FORCED TO

IT HAS TO STOP!

this is a fooking stupid thread, even by hotblack’s standards. who r rof’s “trans champions”? is this yet another invented scary ‘other’ by hotblack’s sort? most ppl on rof seem to have perfectly normal views on the matter, rather than subscribing to hotblack’s manichaean identity politics

it’s also stupid cos gender dysphoria is recognised as a medical condition

the difference is it is often treated by transitioning the individual to the relevant gender

u don’t treat an anorexic by sustaining their beliefs now do u 

Hotblack once again highlighting the appropriateness of choosing his username after a faux dead/coma patient type character dining in the Restaurant at the End of the Universe. 

"Anorexics sincerely, consistently, deeply believe that they are fat and overweight. This belief drives them to harm themselves and sadly, even to kill themselves. 

Trans people sincerely, consistently and deeply believe that their gender differs from their biological sex that they are really a "woman" when their genitalia and hormone levels say "man" or vice versa. This belief drives them to kill themselves (as we are often told by trans activists) or to carry out surgical procedures involving cutting off parts of their bodies.

How, if at all, are we as a society to distinguish between anorexics on the one hand and trans people on the other?"

A sixth form debater speaks

Perhaps a more interesting thought-w**k would be to interrogate the similarities between gender dysphoria and the general belief that looking a certain way is good. Like, why do societies have aesthetic standards of any kind? (*takes long toke*) What’s wrong with half-mast bell-bottom trousers and a string vest on a chubby dad-bod? It’s a mental illness to not find this look attractive in my opinion - I for one rock this look and if anyone mocks me I tell them they have a form of disphoria.

It’s the difference simply one is gender dysphoria which is relatively treatable (it’s not a progressive scale of femaleness to maleness until death), the other is a body dysmoprhia or control issue eating disorder which progresses to death in many instances.

Within the trans community there will be those who suffer depression and suicide as they have a strong dysphoria affecting their judgement - there will be others though who just want to be edgy and hip and down with a sub-culture and so are analogous to the emo kid putting a big hole in their ear and dying their hair blue and calling themselves “fluid” because “ I don’t confirm to your rules maaaaan”.

i have sympathy and time for the former but not so much the latter.

it’s also stupid cos gender dysphoria is recognised as a medical condition

the difference is it is often treated by transitioning the individual to the relevant gender

u don’t treat an anorexic by sustaining their beliefs now do u?

 Anorexia is also a medical condition (in that it is an illness). But we treat it the opposite way to gender dysphoria.

IMHO, we would achieve much better results by treating it the same way as anorexia. Won't work for everyone, but will work for many.

Tragically, I think that part of the problem with trans is that there are surgeons and doctors out there who find it intellectually interesting to turn men into women and vice versa, and their desire to do this (because of the god like power it gives them) clouds their judgment about whether it is in fact the best treatment for gender dysphoria, as opposed to, you know, helping someone feel comfortable in their actual body.

yes but ur not a qualified doctor and ur also famously a purveyor of cod philosophy of extremely limited quality

so not really sure y we should pay attention

sorry, r u seriously asking me y it would be more appropriate to pay attention to a doctor when opining on medical matters?

or r u actually quite cleverly and with gr7 subtlety parodying hotblack’s irrationally idiotic style?

serge m8 it would be great (gr8) if this thread could just disappear

i agree with you in that hotblack is a piss artist who enjoys poking the bear

but these threads over the last couple of days (not specifically this one) must be awful to see for any trans posters/lurkers

would rather they just died tbh

“opining on medical matters” by medical doctors used to include (uncontroversially) discussion about how to cure the pathological disorder known as homosexuality - ect, chemical castration, aversion therapy. one example. medical doctors also used to like opining about eugenics. etc. etc. capiche?

homosexuality is not something which medicine should be seeking to “cure” - I’m assuming that you agree - no doubt you would have paid attention to the Dr.s on the issue in the ‘50s. You assert that gender dysphoria is of course a pyschiatric disorder.  however medical doctors aren’t God and a doctorate in medicine doesn’t induct you into some sort of priesthood which permits infallible diagnosis and treatment of psychiatric disorders. 
 

heh - so sensitive oracle. 

in my dad’s generation at least chimp, lots of consultants had a VERY high opinion of themselves and were allowed to control their departments in a way not far off god. 

Don’t worry, that has long since passed and the pendulum is way too far in the other direction. Now managers control the departments while doctors have responsibility without power.

yup - shouldn’t be bean counters in charge but nor should it be medics. balance required but hard to achieve. waste and inefficiency was outrageous in my dad’s peak days but by the late part of his career - once the bean counters had taken over - operating theatres would sit idle (at huge cost) for days at the end of the month because the budget for anaesthetic gases had been spent…..