A few observations on the Trump riot
Hotblack Desiato 07 Jan 21 08:58
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1. Obviously totally out of order. But so, equally was the BLM/Antifa inspired take over of several square blocks of Seattle as well as the BLM riots in multiple American cities. Democrat politicians rightly condemning the Trump riot should think on their sins to the extent that they failed to swiftly condemn the BLM riots for what they were - unacceptable lawlessness.

2. Presumably those rioters who entered the office of Nancy Pelosi and rifled through papers are going to get hit not just with burglary/public order charges but also national security charges (as presumably the Speaker of the House is privy to national security information and therefore has classified information in her office) and is therefore looking at some eye-watering amount of time in a very nasty federal prison.

3. Several Trump rioters were helpfully carrying Confederate flags, just in case you were unsure as to whether they were anti-democratic racists or not.

4. Given the Confederacy illegally split from the Union over the issue of slavery, thereby precipitating a bloody civil war, describing anyone carrying a Confederate flag as a "patriot", as Trump did, is ironic in the extreme.

5. The GOP in its current incarnation, does, thankfully, appear to be turbofvcked for eternity as a result of its shameful pandering to Trump.

6. One would think that the grounds for removing Trump from office under the 25th (if that is the correct amendment) are now made out, but whether politically it is expedient to do that as opposed to keeping in him some sort of quasi (White) house-arrest for the next 14 days, remains to be seen.

7. Is there literally anything more pathetic than those T-shirts with the face of Donald Trump, an obese 70 something draft dodger spoilt millionaire playboy, super-imposed on the torso of John Rambo, a fictional Vietnam War veteran?

On 6 I don’t think anyone will treat that request seriously when there are only 14 days left. Maybe if he had gone all nuts a year ago or something. 
 

agree with a lot of the other points tbf. 

Stopped reading at "equally so". 

Not sure you know what equal means. 

Re your number 4. The root cause was actually taxation and the feeling that the more productive South was subsidising the North. Obviously the South was more productive because of slavery but it certainly wasn't as simple as slavery good versus slavery bad.

Yes but you've forgotten one fundamental point here, you are not in any circumstances allowed to criticise the BLM movement. Everything they do is entirely justified whether that involves trashing statues, attacking people or posting inflammatory comments on social media. 

Hotblack Desiato 07 Jan 21 08:58

1. Obviously totally out of order. But so, equally was the BLM/Antifa inspired take over of several square blocks of Seattle as well as the BLM riots in multiple American cities. Democrat politicians rightly condemning the Trump riot should think on their sins to the extent that they failed to swiftly condemn the BLM riots for what they were - unacceptable lawlessness.

_____________________________________________________________

you think a fascist coup to disenfranchise the nation is the same as people losing their shit because their race is subject to state sponsored murder and nobody seems to give a fuck about it

 re 7. You HB

Shit-take Desiatio contention is that prior to the Revolutionary War, the economic modalities—especially in the southern colonies—could most aptly be characterized as agrarian pre-capital...

And, of course that's his contention. He's a first year grad student. He just got finished reading some Marxian historian, Pete Garrison probably, he's gonna be convinced of that until next month when you get to James Lemon, then he's gonna be talking about how the economies of Virginia and Pennsylvania were entrepreneurial and capitalist way back in 1740. That's gonna last until next year, he's gonna be back here regurgitating Gordon Wood, talkin’ about, you know, the Pre-revolutionary utopia and the capital-forming effects of military mobilization.

 

SHIT TAKE: [taken aback] Well as a matter of fact I won't, because Wood drastically underestimates the impact of —

 

JELLYwillHunting: "Wood drastically underestimates the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth..." You got that from Vickers, Work in Essex County, Page 98, right? Yeah I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us—you have any thoughts of—of your own on this matter? Or do—is that your thing, you come into a bar, you read some obscure passage and then you pretend, you pawn it off as your own—your own idea just to impress some girls, embarrass my friend?

What the concentration on the violence does is detract from the narrative on the underlying cause.

Black Lives Matter and the issue is that the state needs to be told that in the first place.

Looking at it through the prism of the protaganists, Trumpists genuinely believe they have been disenfranchised and America rendered undemocratic.  Were it true they would be hailed as hero's, the fact they've fallen for a grifters con, renders it madness.

Ignoring the violence of both (which is unacceptable) at their core protestors for BLM demonstrate strength of character in their beliefs, protestors for Trump demonstrate weakness in theirs.  BLM is an amalgam of years of oppression and inequality. MAGA is the spoilt binary "thinking" of the slightly miserable.

Re your number 4. The root cause was actually taxation and the feeling that the more productive South was subsidising the North. Obviously the South was more productive because of slavery but it certainly wasn't as simple as slavery good versus slavery bad.

I am afraid that if you believe this, you have simply imbibed revisionist Southern lies. Very, very, clearly: (1) the North was massively more economically productive than the South, not the otherway around and (2) it was the issue of slavery and its non-extension to newly added states that caused the break in the Union.

There is a strong trend amongst Southern and closet racist US academics to  lie through their fucking teeth about the causes of the American Civil War - so you get people going "it was about States' rights, not slavery". It wasn't. It was very very clearly about slavery, and if you read any non-mental closet racist history of the American Civil War and its origins, that comes through very clearly. Try reading Battle Cry of Freedom, which is the sixth volume of the Oxford history of the US, and you will see for yourself.

America's failure to properly grapple with the South, the plantation culture, is one of the great tragedies of Western civilisation.

I remember driving to a conference at a prestigious uni in the South with one of my colleagues who was from New England. We were talking about people having Confederate flags outside their houses. I said that in a way I didn't mind it on the basis I didn't have to knock on the door to know a racist lived there, they were announcing it for everyone. As an aside the conference was a superb look at international law and how it related to some cutting edge technologies, some of which aren't really known about in the mainstream.

On the subject of the Confederate flag I really liked the attitude the USMC took when the flag was banned from all their bases and being displayed anywhere by marines. The marines rather than complaining said that it was the symbol of losers, the Corps was no place for losers and it was an offence to all their brother/sister african american marines. This raises an important point to make to the flag wavers. The flag is a symbol of a regime founded on immoral beliefs and practices that was defeated. They are proclaiming allegiance to racist losers.

 

They should all have smoked a big spliff. They’d have arrived at the Capitol chilled. 

I’ll take your pathetic John Rambo Trump and raise you avenging Angel Trump from the and I quote here ‘Reconning’...

 

‘’

Trump did what trump does, trump supporters did what trump supporters do.  The real shocker for me was how badly protected the Capitol was.   Especially when you compare it to the armed ranks protecting it during the BLM protests

If there had been adequate protection there would have been a standoff a few minor skirmishes and that would be that.

The problem with comparing it to the BLM protests is the large number of trump supporters heavily armed and wearing ballistic vests. The option presented to law enforcement was enter into what could rapidly escalate into an uncontrolled firefight with people armed with ARs (most of the cops and secret service had sidearms) with could turn out to be a bloodbath or cede some ground to the protestors.

"cede some ground" let them take over the Capitol?

Guy I don't think you really appreciate how badly and quickly this could have escalated. Letting them take the building is better than a blood bath. As it was they were lucky with the small number of injured that there were. Federal agencies are rightly nervous when dealing with the kind of gun toting redneck that showed up at the capitol. These are exactly the sort of people who have a deep seated mistrust of the federal gov and spend their time collecting guns and training for the reckoning.

The building has been retaken and will be restored. It would have been worse having to wash the steps clean of blood.

 

"a deep seated mistrust of the federal gov"

Anyone with any sense has a mistrust of the federal government.

Security failed to do its job, simple as that.

Dux have you ever tried to stop an armed mob of that size without opening fire on them? Security was in a no win situation and did their priority task which was to protect the people

come on blindtom the police were taking selfies with the terrorists - they waved them through 

The problem with comparing it to the BLM protests is the large number of trump supporters heavily armed and wearing ballistic vests.

agreed this is a definite point of difference but no idea why it would indicate the national guard shouldn’t have been out there - their duty is only to protect Congress from unarmed protesters? if you bring guns along the police should step aside?

Letting them take the building is better than a blood bath. 

shots were fired at the door to the representatives chambers

what do you think would have happened if AOC or Ilhan Omar had run into the rioters while being evacuated?

how is “letting them take the building” when unarmed congresspeople and senators are inside a justifiable option?

where were the national guard? 

It would have been worse having to wash the steps clean of blood.

worse than washing down the speakers chair?

what DW said

These terrorists were intent on sedition. They should be prosecuted, as should Trump.

To equate them with campaigners for racial equality is morally offensive.

1 comes across as "Yes, Shipman was bad.  But I know a doctor who once parked in a disabled bay.  Never forget."

 BLM protests is the large number of trump supporters heavily armed and wearing ballistic vests.

BLM protesters were also armed. Some with ballistic vests and weapons. Others with mace, clubs, molotov cocktails etc.

It is not a straightforward BLM good/Trump bad. If you want to peacefully protest that Trump won the election and is the second coming of Jesus Christ himself, that is fine. That is your god given right. If you want to peacefully protest black deaths at the hands of police that is also fine. But the BLM protests as a matter of fact turned into mass rioting and looting and Democrat mayors and governors were extremely anaemic in their response.

So yes, I think that there is a legitimate hypocrisy criticism to be levelled against Democrats who failed to swiftly condemn BLM violence and rioting, but swiftly condemned the Trump riots.

HD do you think there is legitimate criticism to be levelled at the difference in the level of policing/security in the capitol to deal with the Trump rent a mob compared with the BLM rent a mob?

1 comes across as "Yes, Shipman was bad.  But I know a doctor who once parked in a disabled bay.  Never forget."

No it doesn't. 19 people died during the BLM riots in America this year. Numerous buildings were badly vandalised or burnt to the ground, including churches, businesses federal offices and police stations. The major of Seattle ceded control of 6 blocks of the city to anarchists, who dished out punishment beatings and presided over total lawlessness, in which several people were murdered. The liberal media really did turn a massive blind eye to this which was a fucking disgrace.

The Trump riots, by the way, were also a fucking disgrace for the avoidance of doubt. But don't equivocate or give thugs a free pass just because you agree with a fraction of their agenda. That way madness lies.

HD do you think there is legitimate criticism to be levelled at the difference in the level of policing/security in the capitol to deal with the Trump rent a mob compared with the BLM rent a mob?

No. There was a history of violence and property damage associated with BLM demonstrations before they congregated in Washington, and they did, you know, burn down a church in Washington not that far from the White House before order was restored. All those photos you see of the heavy police presence were after the initial outbreak of riots. At first, BLM caught people by surprise hence the appalling damage that was inflicted. 

Conversely, there had not as far I am aware before been serious violence associated with a Trump rally.

And most importantly, if I had been in charge of policing the Capitol I would have planned it this way - the Trump riots have done more to discredit Trumpism and the GOP than anything else. If it had been heavily policed instead, you would have got a few Trump protesters with head injuries complaining about police brutality and winning sympathy. Instead, you have got national horror and condemnation of Trump with, by the way, little in the way of apparent injury or harm to anyone other than the Trump rioters themselves, as it would appear. C.f. you know, Calvin Horton, who was shot while a pawn shop was being looted during BLM riots. Or the unidentified person who burnt to death when another pawn shop was torched in Minneapolis.Or the police offices fatally shot in Oakland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_and_controversies_during_the_Geo….

Can we remember that trump deliberately created the BLM over 4 years of racist rhetoric with the clear knowledge that those states that ran into problems would be Democrat run states, due to their demographics.  

It was an obvious ploy. 

Feelingchill to address one of your points. It is not the duty of the national guard to protect federal property and congress. The name is a bit misleading, the NG does not belong to the nation, it belongs to the state or in this case the District. The NG unless they have had a Federal activation (which they did not have) do not have jurisdiction, rights or duties with respect to the Federal. What the NG were called out for recently was to provide protection on the streets of the District. Now you might hark back to some photos from a while ago of troops on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, they weren't NG, they were regular USAF from Andrews just up the road.

So asking where the NG was is the wrong question. If you were asking whey there weren't more Federal Police (there aren't that many total), FBI, Secret Service, ATF or one of the other agencies you might have a point.

Yeah it's a bit of a weird one in that getting then NG to protect Congress would probably require Congress or President to approve, which takes time and Trump was hardly likely to have the NG called out on his own supporters. The DC NG isn't actually that big (DC isn't that big a place) and they had already been called out by the mayor for street security. We've already had a discussion about deployment of the regular military and how that was very unlikely and again Trump unlikely to order it to stop his own people.

NG are a bit of a strange beast and often misunderstood if you've never had dealings with them. They can be quite large outfits (in the bigger states) with some pretty high end kit (armour, arty, fighter jets including F15s, A10s and some F35) and do get involved in overseas operations when activated under particular statutes that put them under the DoD, but for the most part are controlled by the state governors. They are very distinct from the regular federal military and the reserve military. There is also some weird statutory stuff to look at where the primary function of the regular military isn't actually defence of the USA. Another strange one is the Coast Guard which is actually part of Homeland unless units/personnel are activated and chopped to a DoD mission. Incidently the Coast Guard looks like an amazing gig.

But so, equally was the BLM/Antifa inspired take over of several square blocks of Seattle as well as the BLM riots in multiple American cities.

DISGUSTING TO COMPARE THE ACTIONS IF THESE CONCERNED PATRIOTS WITH THE LEFTIST SCUM WHO THINK THAT BLACK LIVES MATTER AND ARE ANTI-FASCIST

Storming an elected chamber in an attempt to overthrow an election and keep your guy in power isn't quite the same as looting and occupying street corners.

Re 5. The GOP being turbofucked for eternity.

Time and again people say this when a party does something stupid. Time and again they are proved wrong in a very short space of time.

Just in the last few years Labour has been dead for a generation because of Corbyn and Tories have been dead for a generation because of some reverse Bozza suffered. (Remember when the Supreme Court found against Bozza on proroguing, oh he is going to be the shortest prime minister ever etc etc).

The GOP do have a problem. How do they attract the trump base and the traditional Conservative base? They need both but who can they pick next time who can do both? But they will find someone and be there at the next election same as ever. It's not like the lifelong republicans are going to suddenly vote anything else.

are there any words in the english language more baleful than HD saying "a few thoughts on..."?

Re: #1 false equivalency. 
 

It is rather telling that when BLM tried to peacefully protest at the Capitol, the armed National Guard was called in and stood on the steps to block access. Even though there has been no mention of violence/storming. 

FBI had forewarning and was alert to the fact that some had explosive devices

The GOP will sweep congress in 2022. All it will take is two years of utterly ineffectual democrats thinking up the same parade of excuses for why they can't do anything about anything. 

 BLM protests is the large number of trump supporters heavily armed and wearing ballistic vests.

BLM protesters were also armed. Some with ballistic vests and weapons. Others with mace, clubs, molotov cocktails etc.

The ones wearing the ballistic vests and weapons were largely the police the BLM were protesting against. Their absence here was very noticeable. Maybe BLM were successful in defunding them?

"The GOP will sweep congress in 2022. All it will take is two years of utterly ineffectual democrats thinking up the same parade of excuses for why they can't do anything about anything."

 

Isn't that exactly what the GOP wants? A federal government that doesn't do anything? 

Sir Woke XR Remainer FBPE MBE07 Jan 21 12:15

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are there any words in the english language more baleful than HD saying "a few thoughts on..."?

no. several rare species go extinct each time

This is probably overly cynical but it is not beyond the bound of possibility that allowing the storming of the capital with lets face it relatively minimal injury and loss of life was a deep state move to ensure Trump was a busted flush.  high risk move though

are there any words in the english language more baleful than HD saying "a few thoughts on..."?

I didn't say them, did I? I wrote them.

And yes. I would wager "I am afraid its cancer" and "and our next guest is Rod Liddle" are more baleful words.

See also:

"the new Jack Reacher novel"

The words "Peter Hitchens" unless followed by "has his face torn off by hyenas"

And the word "golf" unless followed by "was played by khunts but is now illegal on pain of death"

I always think if Peter Hitchens smoked weed he'd end up like HB

 

Oddly enough

I wonder what the shades of Lincoln, Sherman and Grant thought about the stars and bars being unfurled within the Capitol. That guy got further in a minutes than the Army of Northern Virginia did in 3 years. 

You're a troll.   For the love of God, please say you're a troll.  I can't deal with so much capitalised non sequitur outrage and so much evidence of PFC malfunctions before lunch.  

All thuggery is thuggery, correct. 

Security forces did their main job which was to get politicians out of harm's way.  Make no mistake, those brain-damaged rednecks would have assaulted Pelosi et al.  

The real disgrace is not the actions of heavily-outnumbered security forces on the ground.  The real disgrace is that they were deliberately left so under-resourced in the first place.  With BLM, they're out in force from the start.  

But if you're heavily outnumbered, your best move is to let the yahoos run amok for a bit.  5 people died as it was.  It could so easily have been far worse.  Going in hard from a position of extreme numerical weakness is always a dumb move, one that merely would have seen more officers killed, and the fascists would still have trashed the place. 

The real bias lies in the deliberate decision, presumably emanating from Trump, to have frontline security so lightly resourced in the first place.  It's probable that that was deliberate.  

Also, in terms of more coverage being given to this disorder than to BLM disorder, that's hardly surprising.  BLM violence was associated with protests about a fact, namely a death in custody.  The Capitol violence was associated with protests about debunked fantasies about a stolen election and in clear support of the principle that the democratically-expressed will of the electorate be replaced by white minority rule.  Internationally, the fascist intent of the violence is what drew the attention.  Legitimate protests which turn violent are common enough in many countries.  But deluded protests and violence in support of fascism are extremely newsworthy.  

The US has a history of being either under prepared or inept when one would have thought that this super power, one that's spends billions of dollars on defence, had previously allowed a civilian aircraft to fly into restricted airspace and demolish part of the Pentagon. The home of its security services. Now we have the symbolic centre of American democracy in Washington, stormed by a bunch of ill informed and frankly the dregs of American society, resulting in the unnecessary deaths of five people and the trashing of the building. You couldn't make it up. Makes me wonder how good the US would be if there was an even greater threat!

I guess you could ask Japan how good the US can be with an even greater threat or, perhaps closer to (their) home, Jefferson Davis. Unless Fort Sumter was an inside job...