A federal european superstate
a perfectly no… 08 Jul 19 11:48
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With Britain and all the other former nation state members as semi-autonomous, non sovereign regions within it.

 

Whats actually wrong with this idea?

Well, if you're a nationalist like me, then quite a lot.

If, on the other hand, you believe in world government, then surely it poses an obstacle to achieving that aim by creating "Fortress Europe"?

It’s a great idea.

it’s also fairly inevitable over the next century. 

Whats actually wrong with this idea?

 

if you ask that seriously you are not worth speaking to. 

 

HTH

On the contrary, 3-Ducks, it looks to me like a very sensible step on the road to ending the era of the nation-state, a construct that has caused all kinds of stupid sh1t.

Clearly someone needs an introductory lesson on:-

(a) the idea of subsidiarity;

(b) the difference between being technically “sovereign” as a matter of law and being practically able to act freely and without regard for the wishes and needs of others.  

 

 

A nicely aggressive way of saying “actually, now you come to mention it, I can’t think of anything” from wibble, there!

I agree, this is what Juncker should have offered Cameron pre-referendum

DS, while of course no ignorance of those matters is actually implied by my question, feel free to oblige.

Assuming that is what the people want - nothing. 

Assuming that is not what the people want - everything.

Lol at the people knowing what they actually want or what is best for them even.

It’s about time we moved on from daft ideas like asking the people what they want.

" ending the era of the nation-state"

heh what a deluded chump. 

 

heh @a perfectly normal human being

You have a very bright future in the European Commission. 

We still need to maintain a veneer of democracy,  human being. Agree that the people shouldn't have nay direct influence on what actually happens to them but we must keep elections for some sort of powerless talking shop

Anyone who thinks it is ok for 150,000 tory members to effectively decide the future of brexit negotiations without a general election has no right to talk about democracy.

Totalitarian Democracy:  "a system of government in which lawfully elected representatives maintain the integrity of a nation state whose citizens, while granted the right to vote, have little or no participation in the decision-making process of the government."

The tories have turned us into a totalitarian state.

Democracy isn’t the issue. There’s nothing undemocratic about a federal structure.

 

Hmm yeah there is

but the bigger issue is the superstate -   It grows and grows and yet when the top jobs come in, look out for how Germany and France have discussed between themselves what should happen there...

just cause none of you cunts ever votes in European elections doesn't mean that there's no democracy

Is Germany undemocratic because it is made up of a federation of formally individual states?   Is Italy? 

 

FFS.

The federation and the lack of democracy are two separate issues.

Do Germany & France carve up the key positions in the project between themselves or do they not? Looks like they do...

hmmm..it might just be possible to distinguish between the US and the EU. or Germany and the EU

That's true, it is very possible to distinguish between the democratic merits of the US and the EU.

We know, for example, what happens when states try to secede from the union in the US.

The US and the EU are not really the same. The US is pretty much culturally homogenous, the EU anything but.

Yeah chambo, that's why Northern Californians and Alamabans get on so well

California and West Virginia are culturally homogenous!? Have a word.

Come now Supes, I have summered in both Harlem and the Hamptons and the only real difference I noticed was wifi reception...

Hell, even Virginia and West Virginia aren’t culturally homogenous.  Places in the same state just at different ends aren’t.  The US states are like different countries.

Would Harlem and the Hamptons not still be under the same government, even without the federal union? 

They all speak English, use the same currency, travel around the place without too much bother. 

They just support different sports teams. Show up in a Miami Dolphins t-shirt in Seattle nobody would care.

A few people show up at a rowdy bar dressed in Liverpool t-shirts somewhere in Eastern Europe and the cultural differences might become apparent

That was so incoherent that reading it made me stupider.

It's funny how so many like us think that people (not us, of course, "other people") are incapable of governing themselves and need cleverer people (like us of course) to make all the important decisions. 

I mean, just look at the absolute state of this board. The problem is that people like us already have far too much power and we are far too convinced of our own intellectual superiority to spot the next inevitable fuck up that is probably just around the corner.

Still, not really our problem, is it? When we tank the economy again we can just do what we always do and blame (and then punish) the plebs.

Anyone who says things like 'absolute state' thinks they're way too cool for school, and such expressions probably emanate from something to do with Momentum 

That is RoF Cheese. Everyone is an expert. I read that DB thread but didn't post on it, it got into a bit of a slanging match. One of them was probably right, but who knows.

1. Germany.

2. All the people employed by the EU.

3. It would not stop at Europe, in much the same way as it has already not stopped at just Europe.

lolz, see also posts which have a final sentence beginning  "Oh, and..."

It's not a question of viability (of course it's viable, look at the US).  It's a question of willingness (everybody distrusts each other too much to let it happen) and the fact that you have a load of economies so out of sync with each other that monetary policy becomes virtually meaningless (which is the whole problem of those economies in the Eurozone).  That and the fact we all hate each other.

Anyone who says things like 'absolute state' thinks they're way too cool for school, and such expressions probably emanate from something to do with Momentum 

Or... are just from Liverpool like I am. 

A quick peruse of my posts should quickly disabuse one of the notion that I am the sort of person who would have anything to do with Momentum. 

Now stop being a bad meff and fuck off. 

What Badman said. Which .bits would be federalised and which would be state competence? Because, no euro bonds without a euro tax and - 

- international economic integration

- national sovereignty

- democracy

pick any two

If the human race survives long enough to realise national borders are the single most ridiculous artificial human invention, people will look back on this sort of time and think “Wtaf were they doing?”

 

I suspect it will be a long time before we get to that Star Trek world utopia Teclis. Alien contact maybe.

Hah, I was more thinking about the Culture by Iain M Banks. And whilst I firmly believe there is intelligent life elsewhere, Because maths, I’m sad to say that I rather suspect it to be so far away that our races are deeply unlikely to ever have contact.  Humanity as a race is just about intelligent enough to be lonely.

as a patriot rather than a nationalist, my vote is for whatever is best for britain, not what puts britain first

given we are a small cluster of islands with an ever diminishing wealth and power relative to the world, we’re better off and carry more clout as part of a federal project

the only option is the eu, no question

the shortcomings (and there are many) massively outweighed by the benefits

resisting it is canute whipping the tides

The only people pushing for a Euro superstate are Frog, with their residual envy of America and Bonapartist folie de grandeur

Strange that they did not have this cr*p knocked out of them at Verdun