An Actual Trans Thread- Gender Wars

Did anyone watch this documentary? Pretty interesting and measured. Heard from all sides of the debate. Think some of the TRAs involved objected after the event.

I don't actually know Chill. There were a lot of trans people featured and interviewed. The most interesting was one who had a lot cats. Was pretty sympathetic and adopted a reasonable measured tone. There was also a lot of Team Chill input. Plus Team Anna input as well.

sure - i’ve seen discussion back and forth (i think we did it on the most recent jkr thread where she was defending posie parker over a review) but tbh if no trans people were involved in making it i don’t really see the point in spending the time

cheers though 

Fair enough Chill. The guardian review was very positive though- and this is post Suzanne Moore / Hadley Freeman so paper line is Team Chill / Owen Jones. So think you might enjoy it.

"i think we did it on the most recent jkr thread where she was defending posie parker over a review"

From the other thread, as you never learn:

 

A lie. She spoke out about a lie posted about Kellie-Jay, a lie which you, as a solicitor presumably part of a regulatory org, have also repeated maliciously.

Kudos to Joanne Rowling for speaking out about this lie, which you too Chill have perpetuated.

There is nothing controversial in why Joanne Rowling has spoken out about this. We must, as it's a lie about Kellie-Jay, if we believe we should be ethical. We can agree with everything Kellie-Jay thinks, some of what Kellie-Jay thinks, or none of what Kellie-Jay thinks, and still must speak out about lies being perpetuated about her, which you have also posted before, Chill.

 

Joanne Rowling's post:

As @PatrickStrud has blocked me on here (we've never, to my knowledge, interacted on Twitter or anywhere else) I can't challenge him directly about the claim he published in iNews (see below) that a Let Women Speak event in Australia 'staged a mass Nazi salute'. This is a lie so brazen, so easily disprovable and so libellous, I'm amazed it was allowed it into print by a supposedly reputable news source. For years now, women and gay people concerned about the erosion of their rights, the dismantling of safeguarding and the escalating threats and violence of trans activists have been called 'fascists' and 'Nazis' by people like Strudwick for holding what, until five minutes ago, were solidly left-wing/feminist political positions. Nobody but useful idiots can be genuinely surprised that REAL fascists have spotted a glorious opportunity in trans activism. The homophobic, anti-feminist far-right has long held that the left is degenerate, foolish, immoral and authoritarian, and now they can point to the incoherent arguments of the gender ideologues, the bullying tactics of the no-platformers and the swarms of masked men threatening violence against women for wanting to retain single-sex spaces, and crow 'we told you so'. Actual Nazis have turned up on the fringes of Let Women Speak events for exactly the same reason aggressive, narcissistic trans activists are there. These groups closely resemble each other. Both are rife with misogynistic opportunists who're using a clash of rights to push their own agendas, both are there in the hope of violence, and neither gives a damn about the women who're there to speak out in their own voices, about their own lives, on their own behalf. It's high time those peddling lies like Strudwick's are held accountable and I sincerely hope @ThePosieParker takes action.

It goes without saying, I also hope legal action is taken, both against people like this, and against solicitors who post lies about her online, too. Again, it is inconsequential if someone agree with any of Kellie-Jay's opinions. She did not do what is alleged about her here. It is a lie.

 

Further in the same thread:

They didn't, but then we've been through this over and over, and no amount of Jewish organisations in Australia also speaking out against this nonsense people like you spout will stop you.

As the police forces in Australia are also captured by your dangerous rhetoric, the women were handling their own security largely by paying for it themselves, and subject to males imposing on their event, which is named, wait for it, let women speak. You know, because women are subject to cancellation these days for being concerned about their safety, privacy and dignity, so their financial resources to pay for private security only stretch so far.

Males couldn't stand the idea of letting women speak. Imagine. It's almost as if the movement came about because, wait for it, males weren't letting women speak.

It's almost, as if, you're still, in 2023, blaming women for poor male choices and conduct on public streets, and inadequate policing and captured police forces untethered to values.

here’s the transcript of the last ten seconds for those who can’t listen (in kellie-jay keen’s / posie parker’s own words):

we are under the most immense global attack, and it’s happening to us in textbook fashion all over the world

you have to bury your differences and divisions - you have to do that

i- if you’re the sort of person who freely calls people “right-wing”, “white supremacists” - if that’s your bag, then you’re not on the side of women

you have to - clearly - forget everything else

It appears she is running with 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' angle and expressly including white supremacists as people she will side with on her quest to persecute transpersons globally. 

Delightful. 

Chill I haven't tbf. But even assuming she's an unsavoury sort who consorts with racists she doesn't deserve violence.

In any event there have been lots of rape and death threats on the TRA side towards GC women plus actual violence. GC women haven't been violent towards TRAs. 

 

"here’s kellie-jay keen / posie parker in her own words

i’ll let the posters decide what they think about what she has to say (and what jkr’s views might be, given her post you’ve kindly reposted above):"

 

"I'll let the posters?" How arrogant, as if everyone's at the edge of their seat, waiting for you to misunderstand and misinterpret the next thing.

 

This from you is completely irrelevant (the need to speak out about lies being perpetuated by people such as you, Chill), because of what I have now posted many times:

There is nothing controversial in why Joanne Rowling has spoken out about this. We must, as it's a lie about Kellie-Jay, if we believe we should be ethical. We can agree with everything Kellie-Jay thinks, some of what Kellie-Jay thinks, or none of what Kellie-Jay thinks, and still must speak out about lies being perpetuated about her, which you have also posted before, Chill.

Chill's problems with her are

  • she's a woman advocating for women
  • she won't kow-tow to Chill's manifesto
  • she won't produce an hostage video begging for forgiveness for having the wrong opinions according to Chill's Twitter overlords
  • she's defiant in the face of being subject to violence and threats

As I posted elsewhere to Chill:

Like every other living human, she has some opinions a person may agree with, and some a person may not. She states over and over again, that she has no expectation that everyone agree on everything, in order that they can work together on some things that matter in-common. She expects adults to be able to work peacefully together, whatever their differences.

She isn't in the least bit unsavoury, Clive, whether you agree with her wholeheartedly, a little bit, or not at all.

She takes huge personal risks, and at great personal expense, to give voices to women, whatever their beliefs.

Any woman can speak on anything at her events. That's remarkable and important, whatever you think of Kellie-Jay's opinions on any particular matter.

The idea that we only work with people who agree with us on all matters all of the time, is what keeps people writing on the internet, patting themselves on the back for their heroics (whilst doing nothing to actually help).

You'll find flaws in everyone getting on with the job if that's what you seek. Perfect people per our individual definition do not exist. People like Kellie-Jay are remarkable owing to their rarity, because they get on with doing the important stuff. Most do nothing but take aim from the sidelines, telling all who'll listen they'd do it all much better (yet never do actually do anything to help).

well outside of living rent-free in rumpole’s head, i have no idea how you watch that video of kellie-jay keen / posie parker and then say something like:

People like Kellie-Jay are remarkable owing to their rarity, because they get on with doing the important stuff.

There is no 1 person living, Chill, with whom I agree with everything they do, say and think. Amongst those I am closest to, there are vast differences of opinion on some matters, and other matters which we completely agree on.

Peaceful protestors of any type should not be subject to abuse, threats or violence, regardless of what I think of their opinions. It matters not a jot what I think of their opinions, that I believe they should not be subject to abuse, threats or violence.

They should also not be subject to lies, like those which you have told, Chill.

Peaceful protestors of any type should not be subject to abuse, threats or violence, regardless of what I think of their opinions. It matters not a jot what I think of their opinions, that I believe they should not be subject to abuse, threats or violence.

agreed, except if they’re nazis

you’re supposed to punch nazis

indiana jones covered this decades ago

None of this is funny, Chill. Kellie-Jay was assaulted. She is routinely subject to death and rape threats.

Anything to say about the assault she was subject to?

Anything to say about the death and rape threats she is subject to?

i disagree with any rape or death threats rumpole, but i haven’t done any of those things

whereas you have been praising her on this thread after i posted that video where she was calling trans people “parasites” who have their “tentacles” into the nhs and other institutions 

Yet you found yourself so impassioned you were able to commit to calling a pregnant poster on the board a monster repeatedly because you disagreed with her, and felt she should bow-down, but she wouldn't, and you couldn't stand that. Why so little sentiment now you're asked about a woman subject to death and rape threats?

 

I have held a consistent position on Kellie-Jay all along. Nothing is new in what I have posted today. My position remains:

 

We can agree with everything Kellie-Jay thinks, some of what Kellie-Jay thinks, or none of what Kellie-Jay thinks, and still must speak out about lies being perpetuated about her, which you have also posted before, Chill.

Like every other living human, she has some opinions a person may agree with, and some a person may not. She states over and over again, that she has no expectation that everyone agree on everything, in order that they can work together on some things that matter in-common. She expects adults to be able to work peacefully together, whatever their differences.

She isn't in the least bit unsavoury, Clive, whether you agree with her wholeheartedly, a little bit, or not at all.

She takes huge personal risks, and at great personal expense, to give voices to women, whatever their beliefs.

Any woman can speak on anything at her events. That's remarkable and important, whatever you think of Kellie-Jay's opinions on any particular matter.

The idea that we only work with people who agree with us on all matters all of the time, is what keeps people writing on the internet, patting themselves on the back for their heroics (whilst doing nothing to actually help).

You'll find flaws in everyone getting on with the job if that's what you seek. Perfect people per our individual definition do not exist. People like Kellie-Jay are remarkable owing to their rarity, because they get on with doing the important stuff. Most do nothing but take aim from the sidelines, telling all who'll listen they'd do it all much better (yet never do actually do anything to help).

No, but I am 99% certain that a through search of rumtroll's laptop and search history would uncover some eye watering and very likely illegal content. Only zealots post like that and most of them are depraved beyond belief and the law.

A lot of people are saying that rumtroll likes to look at indecent images while thwacking away at his banjo. While this isn't verified, others are saying there is no smoke without fire and a close neighbour has observed rumtroll planting a lot of yew trees in his garden recently in a move described by people who know him as sinister.

Runpole, have you anything to say about the threats and abuse experiences by trans-inclusive cis women? Largely I suspect from the far right groups who turn out in support of ‘kellie Jay’? Or the cis women who are told they are trans by very fine people who Can Always Tell and definitely just have women’s safety at heart?

the sooner people realise there are very fine people on both sides, and ignore them, the better 

In any event there have been lots of rape and death threats on the TRA side towards GC women plus actual violence. GC women haven't been violent towards TRAs. 

have you heard of “libs of tiktok” clive?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libs_of_TikTok

Some Libs of TikTok posts have resulted in harassment against teachers, medical providers, children's hospitals, and LGBT venues.[11][25][26][27] Libs of TikTok posts regularly slur LGBT people, as well as those who provide mental-health services to LGBT youth and LGBT sex education to students, as "groomers".[c] Its followers "routinely attack individuals whose content is shared",[21] and several dozen incidents of online or real-life threats and harassment against a range of targets have been linked to Libs of TikTok's tweets, especially those where Raichik singles out specific events, locations or people.

Raichik created the Twitter account in November 2020, and, after adopting a series of different handles, she changed its name to @LibsofTikTok in April 2021. Later that year, the account began receiving media attention, including from conservative commentators and news outlets. Raichik remained anonymous until her identity was revealed in April 2022 by, separately, software developer Travis Brown and The Washington Post journalist Taylor Lorenz.[22] In August 2022, Libs of TikTok received substantial media attention after falsely claiming that gender-affirming hysterectomies were being provided to minors at the Boston Children's Hospital and at the Children's National Hospital. This resulted in harassment campaigns, including bomb threats, against both hospitals. Libs of TikTok's videos have also been promoted by Russian and European disinformation networks, particularly a Kremlin-backed anti-LGBTQ disinformation campaign.

In June 2022, Libs of TikTok had some of their tweets removed after they posted the locations of a drag-focused events in the United States, including at least one Drag Queen Story Hourthat was geared toward preschool-aged children. That location, in San LorenzoCalifornia, was stormed by the Proud Boys, a far-right extremist group.[54] Pride events in Dallas and Coeur d'Alene were also targeted by right-wing extremists after Libs of TikTok posted about them; at the Coeur d'Alene event, 31 Patriot Frontmembers were arrested before getting to their destination.[55][56] In June, a spokesperson for the Alameda County Sheriff's Office said investigators believe that the Proud Boys confrontation was caused by Libs of TikTok.[15][57] In August, NPR reported that "no conclusive link between the posts and the extremist groups' activities" had been established.[11]

The Proud Boys have also targeted or threatened to target other events Libs of TikTok has publicized, including a Woodland, California, bar's drag happy hour (which Raichik said was hosted by a "youth group" for "all ages"),[58] a drag brunch planned to planned to benefit a local LGBT resource center in Sanford, North Carolina,[59] and a drag-queen story hour that was planned (and then cancelled) by a K-5 school in Columbus, Ohio.[60]

In November, a South Dakota State UniversityLGBTQ student group was the target of a bomb threat being investigated by the University Police Department, after Libs of TikTok posted alleged footage of that year's annual drag event, which was advertised as all-ages. The student group and the performer at the center of the event said Libs of TikTok's video spliced together scenes of that year's event with the previous year's event, which had been age-restricted.[61]

In May 2023, it was reported that the shooter responsible for the Allen, Texas shooting had dedicated to Libs of TikTok a long screed he posted to social media denouncing Drag Queen Story Hour.[62]

Raichik opposes gender-affirming surgery on children, arguing that it is mass scale child abuse and that "[a]ny doctor performing these surgeries should have their license revoked. They belong in prison".[63][64]

After the Libs of TikTok posts, each hospital's employees were subject to harassment, and both BCH[71][72][73] and CNH[19][15][68][50] were subject to bomb threats, though it was unclear whether each of the threats were related to the harassment.[72] NBC News described Libs of TikTok as "one of the primary drivers of the harassment campaign" against BCH.[74] The threats of violence were widely denounced,[75][11][71] and both state[47] and federal[76][77]authorities launched investigations into the threats. When contacted by The Washington Post, Raichik did not answer a question about whether she felt responsible for the threats against the hospitals, but said that "we 100% condemn any acts/threats of violence".[15][78] In a later tweet, Raichik said that she would continue to call out hospitals,[79] and, in the aftermath of the CNH tweets, after which Twitter temporarily suspended the Libs of TikTok account, Raichik said, "Getting suspended by Twitter has only made me realize my biggest mistake. I only called one hospital I should have called dozens because I promise you Children's National is not the only one. I promise to learn from my mistake and uncover more of what our Big Tech overlords don't want us to know. I will do better in the future."

what’s happening against lgbt+ people right now is actually very frightening, not funny, and more people need to understand it (and not downplay it or blame lgbt+ people for it tbh)

Lol no worries Chill- just as long as you don't go 100%. None of the perps of those disgusting acts are GC feminists who tend to be left of centre. No GC feminist has done violence themselves? The rape and death threats and violent acts committed by TRAs against GC women aren't reciprocated.

Agree with you but your stories are American. Think the reaction against the TRAs is because of the overreach and they want stuff and stay stuff that most people think is bonkers.

Things are really bad in Uganda now.

Here most of the hate seems to come from Team Chill- watch Gender Wars. The bullying and abuse faced by Kathleen was grim. The Cambridge non binary student law who basically lied so he could abuse her in public in a debate (which had nothing to do with her personally), wasn't nice.

The TRAs have complained about the show. All sides were allowed to speak. That seems anathema to them.

Here most of the hate seems to come from Team Chill- watch Gender Wars. The bullying and abuse faced by Kathleen was grim

kathleen stock?

how do you mean clive?

academics wrote an open letter against her views and posters were put up by students on campus. some people denounced her on social media

i don’t think she’s ever said she’s gotten death threats (like some other gc advocates have i agree)

but that’s free speech (particularly in a university setting)

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/05/kathleen-stock-interview-university-sussex-transgender-headlines-2021

Several Sussex colleagues publicly denounced her on social media, although strangely, she says, not to her face. “No peer ever said to me: ‘Look, I really object to what you’re saying and I’d like to discuss it with you.’ They immediately went to Defcon 1: ‘She’s a bigot… arguing for single-sex spaces is like the Jim Crow laws [that historically enforced racial segregation in the American south].’”

Stock got used, she says, to being snubbed in corridors at Sussex. But the only time she becomes visibly distressed is describing a research talk she was due to give her department in April. Some graduate students organised a rival trans solidarity event, with a guest speaker critical of Stock, and 40 of her colleagues chose that event over her talk. She went off sick, unable to function. “It just got me. I can’t really even say why, but the things that get me are when it’s your tribe...”

oh some colleagues attended a different trans-inclusive event how awful for her

luckily she could resign, join the right-wing university of austin, and now be interviewed by dozens of media organisations 

imagine if she was a trans person

And so it goes...

After threats to burn down Kellie-Jay's house whilst she is inside, threats to kick the shit out of her, pull her eyes out and break her spine, an expression of love of the idea that she be brutally and horifically killed:

https://twitter.com/StandingforXX/status/1666588564530790401

A male politician on Twitter threatens to shoot the women attending let women speak Vienna:

https://twitter.com/donnasdottir/status/1668006562781167616

Right in front of a male police officer, a masked male threatens to shoot the women attending let women speak Geneva:

https://twitter.com/Wommando/status/1667885863118811136

 

Whilst the police in Vienna kept the TRA's far away from the females attending let women speak Vienna, having also installed barriers as a second level of protection, police in Geneva were inadequately prepared, and the event was cut short because the women were not safe. You can see how close the TRA's were able to get to the women here, and how disruptive they were permitted to be:

https://twitter.com/RoisinMichaux/status/1667866817304436736

https://twitter.com/frau_bode/status/1668112345971802112

A woman's voice shakes, as she tries to speak at let women speak Geneva, drowned out by the disruptive behaviour the TRA's were permitted to exhibit, fearful for her safety, because the police let the TRA's get close to the women, and the TRA's were essentially controlling matters:

https://twitter.com/RoisinMichaux/status/1667857706886021120

In contrast to this impassioned, remarkable, brave female at let women speak Vienna,surrounded by police and barriers for her safety, who travelled all the way from Holland to speak, talking about her East African heritage and issues of consent her mum experienced. Thanks to the adequate preparation and professional work of Vienna police, alongside that of the women volunteers who organise the events, and private security the women pay for, she was able to speak without disruption from the TRA's:

https://twitter.com/CoachCaroline/status/1667520224994754561

Yes, people are very intolerant of bigotry these days, you get these sort of things at Nazi & far right rallies too. Hope the authorities get a handle on it, violence has no place in politics.

Still, as Chill says it brings home the fact that this sort of violence and hatred trans people face every day, encouraged by people with views like Rumpoles, but of course they can't just take off their terf badge at the end of the day like these people can

Then you'll be able to show evidence for that Warren. Chill hasn't been able, yet he gets off on fear-mongering. He delights in pretending people who state they are trans are in danger all day long, despite that not being true.

Where's your evidence Warren?

-----------------------------------------------------

Ontario MPP Joel Harden states he was punched at a protest for those critical of gender ideology, posting a picture he says shows the harm caused by the punch. Thus far, there's no video footage of such a punch, and nobody has come forward to say they witnessed it, despite hundreds of people everywhere with camera phones.

https://twitter.com/JoelHardenONDP/status/1667253869934522368

"But I’ll take a punch for queer and trans youth any day."

 

What there is, though, is this footage of him pressing his megaphone into his cheek as he uses it:

https://twitter.com/CarymaRules/status/1667728440798203905

Contrast of the punch photo alongside pic's of his megaphone pressed into his cheek for comparison:

https://twitter.com/CarymaRules/status/1667728452240261121

Kudos to Donna Krasniqi for continued advocacy for women to be able to gather and speak safely

Kudos to police in Vienna for continued professional work, already stating on a public forum they'll look into this threat from a politician to shoot women for attending let women speak:

A male politician on Twitter threatens to shoot the women attending let women speak Vienna:

https://twitter.com/donnasdottir/status/1668006562781167616

https://twitter.com/LPDWien/status/1668172370471731207

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWS5ua6tU4Q

Let women speak Geneva

Why the event had to be abandoned, because the women were not safe, owing to the inadequate handling of TRA's by the police throughout. Lack of adequate preparation and response from the police, led to the TRA's controlling the whole event, and escalating their aggression.

11:41 onwards, why the stewards who volunteer to keep the women safe and private security the women pay for are so critical when the police response is inadequate.

yes yes but which direction are you pretending to walk on the stairs rumpole?

i’m trying to imagine it while reading your posts and it’s getting quite confusing for me