Two guys in my office flew back from Milan on Sunday night and have refused HR's instructions to work from home for a week because "they feel fine", aunts.
This is why quarantine short of full China Wuhan style is pointless.
Two guys in my office flew back from Milan on Sunday night and have refused HR's instructions to work from home for a week because "they feel fine", aunts.
One of my clients has just flown back from DXB to Germany and I never spotted him setting me up for him having a C Virus scare. I think his issues are caused by my invoice rather than any virus.
I should no better with this guy but he is a good friend and has introduced me to some good clients so I don't really rely to much on him paying his bills and tbh the nuts stuff he gets upto is entertaining.
My brother flew into Treviso (for work) first thing Monday, ushered back on a flight pretty much straight on landing at the airport as the quarantine measures had kicked in.
Hes been told to work/w**k from home for a fortnight.
The offshore workers are loving it. They're all booking quick trips to italy so they get full paid quarantine for 2 weeks when they're meant to be on the rigs
Milan isn't itself in the lockdown zone. Government advice is only to self-isolate when you've been to N Italy outside of the lockdown zone if you have symptoms.
They are perfectly entitled to come into the office.
The death stats published in the times today note that the virus is being ageist. It is mostly resulting in deaths of the older generation:
-----
With coronavirus the death rate is not u-shaped. Yes, it rises sharply among the old but among those under 40 it is 0.2 per cent. Among those under ten it is zero. Once people enter their 40s the risk of death doubled for each additional decade - rising to 3.6 per cent for those in their 60s, 8 per cent in their 70s and almost 15 per cent for those over 80.
They think this is because children's immune systems are well tuned to dealing with pathogens they have not seen before - their "innate immune" systems are stronger. Adults rely on adaptive immunity (antibodies and acquired resistance) and their innate immunity wanes. Women tend to have stronger immune systems than men.
It will only be a few years before everyone has some degree of learned immunity to the latest coronavuvu.
We have a team member trying to get back from northern Italy but she is just going to self quarantine for 2 weeks when she's back because she's not a dick.
If I saw anyone in my neighbourhood who I thought was peddling to local kids, I would get straight out the house and set about him.. These guys are all pussies.
One of the patients (presumably the one who has been taken to the Royal Liverpool) is from Buxton in Derbyshire and is said to have acquired the virus in Tenerife. They are a parent and their children's school is closed.
They can't be transporting people 100 miles every time there's a case. They are going to need the ability to treat this locally.
re Tenerife case, we will want to know whether s/he stayed at the hotel where the Italian doctor stayed. If not then it suggests a more general spread in Tenerife.
Difficult to believe it's not already going round in the UK tbh.
Isn't it just common sense and decency though? It's not like the virus knows that it has to stop when it gets to the edge of the quarantine zone in northern Italy.
I tend to agree with torontochick actually. People should stick to the rules and people who are sticking to the rules should be suspected. If every man tried to be his own epidemiologist on this, society will melt down. If the rules say self isolate, do so. If they don't, no need.
There was an odd statement in the WHO briefing the other day about their trip to China where they said that they were not seeing evidence of lots of mild unreported cases. Which is worrying as we are all praying that the denominator effect brings the ultimate fatality rate down. But the effect may not be as great as people are hoping, particularly once the lag effect has run its course.
At Trumps presser yesterday they were talking about 2-3%. He was trying to lie that it was like the flu, but couldn’t quite do it as it was so obviously wrong.
I still think if we can control it enough so that we’re not overwhelmed and can flatten out the epi curve/spike - that it will probably come in at 1-2% in the West. Ive been pretty consistent on that for a few weeks and the increasing amounts of non China data seem to align with it - although clearly there are risks both ways.
Ofc now we are realising that containment might well not be possible, people will start to wake up to the reality of what that 1-2% base case could mean. Quite a lot of dead people (2-300,000 in the UK). To try and stop that catastrophe there is probably going to have to be lots and lots of “inconvenience” for people who object to panicky overreactions.
I think this means a recession is almost a certainty. We were pretty much on the edge of one anyway. The only question is how bad?
I agree with you as to the mortality rate of detectable cases. The number of unknown cases is inherently unknown. I don't think it means much that the WHO didn't see any evidence of inherently undetectable things on the basis of a few hours trundling round Wuhan in a jeep.
There was an odd statement in the WHO briefing the other day about their trip to China where they said that they were not seeing evidence of lots of mild unreported cases.
Yes this is concerning but was contested in one piece I read by another epidemiologist who cited the fact that there are cases "popping up" elsewhere without an obvious chain of transmission - this tends to support the idea that there are in fact mild unreported cases.
Laz the basis for the statement was that a decent amount of community testing has been done which failed to demonstrate clearly that there are a significant number of cases just hanging around not seeking medical care.
"The number of unknown cases is inherently unknown"
Proper profound right there.
Puts me in mind of the old Ben Elton joke - "the government says that about x% of the adult population is carrying the HIV virus without knowing it. How does the government know? Shouldn't they tell them?"
Interesting coverage of this point here. Aylward's suggestion that there are not legions of mild, undetected cases is somewhat contentious, although that is indeed his view at this stage:
Prof John. Nichols of HKU said fairly early on in the outbreak that he thought this looked like an aggressive cluster disease that, it fought aggressively, would manifest itself in intense localised bursts, and maybe, if Aylward is right, he’s right. I don’t attempt to arbitrate between public health specialists (although I wish I could and may refrain as a public health doctor, just to annoy both u guys and the coronavuvu (a new and powerful enemy for it!)). But I do note that internet chunterers tend to pick the side they agree with. So whatever I see people saying on the internet, I tend to highlight the counter-perspective.
Fair point Chimp. So you reckon it's likely to only affect quarter of the population?
Very hard to say - depends on both the true infectivity which remains unclear and also the public health measures taken to limit spread. We don’t have the capability to do it like China has for obvious reasons
The other thing Aylward said which was a little disquieting is the availability of ICU beds and ECMO facilities - apparently much better in China than elsewhere. This actually rings true to me, particularly the ECMO point. The use of ECMO remains comparatively rare in the western healthcare systems where I have practiced emergency medicine (Aus and UK). I have seen it but not often. Reading some of the early reports about the Hubei response ECMO seemed to be very much available and in common use. Not sure we would be able to match that
think that is something on people’s minds, chimpo. I saw this slightly odd “coronavirus readiness map” in the Daily Express which claimed the US and U.K., along with France and Australia, were the best prepared first world countries, more so than say Germany. I found that counter intuitive tbf.
The initial death rate in Italy was high but I assume that was because it was initially spread through hospitals and thus the first batch of infectees includes a lot of people who were already acutely ill.
If Aylward is right about the paucity of undetected infections, which I’m not saying he isn’t, then I would be interested in the explanation of the relatively high number of cases of people coming out of Italy carrying it. You’re telling me they all had contact with the 400 defected cases, most of whom are nowhere near Milan or the ski resorts?
Chimp - noted. There clearly must be some - maybe a lot of unreported cases - but we just dont know the order of magnitude and it might turn out not to be as high as expected. On the other hand that would lead to conclusion it may not be as contagious as feared and might be relatively controllable. Tbh looking at the rest of China I think that is very likely the case - albeit it will come at great economic cost.
Sails - yes - sorry should have explained working. Assumed the pandemic penetration was c30% of population. Which is pretty conservative. 1% of 20m is then 200k. So for every per cent in the fatality rate u r looking at 200K dead.
You are right - doomsters cant have it both ways. But of course it being ‘controllable’ begs the questions with what controls? In China they appear to have it under control - but its taken some incredibly stringent shut downs and changes in behaviour across very large areas. So big economic costs and we are still a way from knowing whether it simply flares up again when controls are relaxed.
If you have intermittent shut downs springing up across the whole global economy to keep a lid on it (and massive changes in personal/consumer behaviours - this is going to be a huge psychic shock) - then there will be profound economic consequences. Which will probably be mostly adverse, at least initially.
...and if it then settles in and becomes endemic like the cold or flu - but with a fatality rate at say 0.5-1%, then the world changes very profoundly.
I agree your 13:08 is a feasible if not probable scenario. The only thing that will stop it being feasible is the development of a universal antiviral - something that kills all viruses and only viruses, and can easily be produced, distributed and administered. Ideally safe enough to be sold over the counter. That should be possible with 5 years of total war level, Manhattan Project level coordinates global research, and that should now be prioritised. Kill this shit, and other shit like it, with fire.
Another point to not on fatality rate is that Chinas demographics are better than ours. Its possible that fatality rate in UK is ultimately worse die to our older population. (Study i saw removing all other variables and just apply current China fatality rates to our demographic suggests a fatality rate in UK which could be twice China’s. Though clearly thats very artificial as so many other variables -I think we probably have fewer smokers/less pollution which will clearly be better.
The only thing that will stop it being feasible is the development of a universal antiviral - something that kills all viruses and only viruses, and can easily be produced, distributed and administered. Ideally safe enough to be sold over the counter. That should be possible with 5 years of total war level, Manhattan Project level coordinates global research, and that should now be prioritised.
Yes m8 we’ll get right on that can’t believe nobody thought of developing a safe universally effective antiviral in 5 years before now thanks for giving us the idea
Heh - I did kind of think that too, but anon has a point in that we may be about to learn that biosecurity is the biggest challenge facing our global civilisation. In which case it would warrant a new level of massive investment to seek further and better solutions.
Civilisation-ruining plague can get in line with civilisation-ruining climate change, civilisation-ruining artificial intelligence, civilisation-ruining wealth inequality and civilisation-ruining porn habits tbh
If every clever person who is currently researching other shit started researching that instead, we’d get it done. Even if all the clever people currently researching novel ways to blow other people up stopped doing that and started researching the universal antiviral - we’d get it done. And yes I know weapons engineers aren’t virologists but one of the emerging theories of scientific practice is that it is, or may out of necessity become, easier for scientists to retool than is commonly perceived.
Another thing, chimpazoid. The Italian “patient one’l, who needed intensive care, was a very fit man of 38 who ran marathons and played football. His ailment bolsters my belief that doing vigorous exercise is very counterproductive in terms of facing respiratory disease. Big gulpfuls of cold air will inflame the lungs anyway, making them raw and receptive to infection, and if you’ve got the lurgy in your upper respiratory system you’re gulping loads of it down deep into your chest. Moral: any attempts I might otherwise have made at exercise above and beyond a gentle stroll (in any event limited) are suspended until this blows over.
Even if all the clever people currently researching novel ways to blow other people up stopped doing that and started researching the universal antiviral - we’d get it done.
Drifting off the point a bit but I actually don’t agree with this - the proposed universal antiviral would be an incredibly difficult problem (if not actually impossible) and those are not necessarily amenable to simply more and more resources and more and more clever people. If that were the case we would have cured cancer by now.
was every fooking body in Italy last week? fooking everywhere is shut because someone went to Italy. News flash dick heads, the skiing is shit in italy anyway.
You’ll be thinking that the other side of your face when the world needs even more saving from viral doom than it does at the mo, as I’d be ace at public health.
They seemingly have it under control atm, but he concedes there are cases have not been identified, and the control they have is likely to be brief because political pressure has forced the VN govt to reopen their Chinese border.
The thing is with all the people coming back from Italy and “showing symptoms” - a lot of them will be bog standard colds/flus etc. We’ve had 4 people self isolate at work - all 4 have been tested and are negative. They just have winter bugs.
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What part of the country?
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haven't said
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We were going to have a holibob in Italy. Just about to book the blighter.
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Simon Calder said on the BBC this morning that he's seen a weekend break in Venice on BA for £179 a person
quite tempting
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One's in the Royal Liverpool and one's in the RFH, which suggests northwest and south east
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Two guys in my office flew back from Milan on Sunday night and have refused HR's instructions to work from home for a week because "they feel fine", aunts.
This is why quarantine short of full China Wuhan style is pointless.
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You'd pay £179 to risk coronavirus? Takes all sorts.
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I assume Tigerlily meant "which part of Italy"? Who cares where in the UK they live?
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just as likely to get it on the Northern Line tbf
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This is ridiculous. Can't they be forced to?
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when covid switches on his video
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They're pretty senior, no-one seems to have had the will to force them.
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what stupid selfish bastards. Nothing like leading by example, eh.
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One of my clients has just flown back from DXB to Germany and I never spotted him setting me up for him having a C Virus scare. I think his issues are caused by my invoice rather than any virus.
I should no better with this guy but he is a good friend and has introduced me to some good clients so I don't really rely to much on him paying his bills and tbh the nuts stuff he gets upto is entertaining.
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some people are panicking unneccessarily about this, but I concur that the two blokes in pancakes' office are utter khunts.
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I suspect the London case was the CW chap.
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My brother flew into Treviso (for work) first thing Monday, ushered back on a flight pretty much straight on landing at the airport as the quarantine measures had kicked in.
Hes been told to work/w**k from home for a fortnight.
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this is why people should have their beach holidays in the UK.
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Our work sent a load of lads home.
The offshore workers are loving it. They're all booking quick trips to italy so they get full paid quarantine for 2 weeks when they're meant to be on the rigs
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Milan isn't itself in the lockdown zone. Government advice is only to self-isolate when you've been to N Italy outside of the lockdown zone if you have symptoms.
They are perfectly entitled to come into the office.
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Or they could just do the exact same job from home for a week and not be self-important aunts that just need to be seen.
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wonder if the NW case is one of the cheshire school skiers? prob not, as they ought to have been out of the way of it, but
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The death stats published in the times today note that the virus is being ageist. It is mostly resulting in deaths of the older generation:
-----
With coronavirus the death rate is not u-shaped. Yes, it rises sharply among the old but among those under 40 it is 0.2 per cent. Among those under ten it is zero. Once people enter their 40s the risk of death doubled for each additional decade - rising to 3.6 per cent for those in their 60s, 8 per cent in their 70s and almost 15 per cent for those over 80.
----
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-children-are-safer-than-anyone-0l3b5tsc6
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They think this is because children's immune systems are well tuned to dealing with pathogens they have not seen before - their "innate immune" systems are stronger. Adults rely on adaptive immunity (antibodies and acquired resistance) and their innate immunity wanes. Women tend to have stronger immune systems than men.
It will only be a few years before everyone has some degree of learned immunity to the latest coronavuvu.
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We have a team member trying to get back from northern Italy but she is just going to self quarantine for 2 weeks when she's back because she's not a dick.
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If I saw anyone in my neighbourhood who I thought was peddling to local kids, I would get straight out the house and set about him.. These guys are all pussies.
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wrong thread!
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What a great time to be over 40!
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I'm only just over 40 so I'm closer to the 0.2 than the 0.4
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also I think you can probably divide all the mortality rates by 10, but TBD
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One of the patients (presumably the one who has been taken to the Royal Liverpool) is from Buxton in Derbyshire and is said to have acquired the virus in Tenerife. They are a parent and their children's school is closed.
They can't be transporting people 100 miles every time there's a case. They are going to need the ability to treat this locally.
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my mate got back from work trip to milan and was asked to self isolate after being back for a week. he's currently working from home
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re Tenerife case, we will want to know whether s/he stayed at the hotel where the Italian doctor stayed. If not then it suggests a more general spread in Tenerife.
Difficult to believe it's not already going round in the UK tbh.
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Sorry why would you need to wfh if coming back from Milan? That’s not advice given by any public health body.
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Isn't it just common sense and decency though? It's not like the virus knows that it has to stop when it gets to the edge of the quarantine zone in northern Italy.
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I tend to agree with torontochick actually. People should stick to the rules and people who are sticking to the rules should be suspected. If every man tried to be his own epidemiologist on this, society will melt down. If the rules say self isolate, do so. If they don't, no need.
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There was an odd statement in the WHO briefing the other day about their trip to China where they said that they were not seeing evidence of lots of mild unreported cases. Which is worrying as we are all praying that the denominator effect brings the ultimate fatality rate down. But the effect may not be as great as people are hoping, particularly once the lag effect has run its course.
At Trumps presser yesterday they were talking about 2-3%. He was trying to lie that it was like the flu, but couldn’t quite do it as it was so obviously wrong.
I still think if we can control it enough so that we’re not overwhelmed and can flatten out the epi curve/spike - that it will probably come in at 1-2% in the West. Ive been pretty consistent on that for a few weeks and the increasing amounts of non China data seem to align with it - although clearly there are risks both ways.
Ofc now we are realising that containment might well not be possible, people will start to wake up to the reality of what that 1-2% base case could mean. Quite a lot of dead people (2-300,000 in the UK). To try and stop that catastrophe there is probably going to have to be lots and lots of “inconvenience” for people who object to panicky overreactions.
I think this means a recession is almost a certainty. We were pretty much on the edge of one anyway. The only question is how bad?
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I agree with you as to the mortality rate of detectable cases. The number of unknown cases is inherently unknown. I don't think it means much that the WHO didn't see any evidence of inherently undetectable things on the basis of a few hours trundling round Wuhan in a jeep.
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he was also in Verona. and just did what his company asked
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Yes this is concerning but was contested in one piece I read by another epidemiologist who cited the fact that there are cases "popping up" elsewhere without an obvious chain of transmission - this tends to support the idea that there are in fact mild unreported cases.
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Laz the basis for the statement was that a decent amount of community testing has been done which failed to demonstrate clearly that there are a significant number of cases just hanging around not seeking medical care.
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Whorf 2% of a population of 60 million is 1.2m not 300,000.
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Ultimately though it has to be one of two things:
1. There are a lot of unreported cases -> current mortality figures are overestimates
2. There are few unreported cases -> containment measures have been surprisingly effective to date
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Sails that assumes 100% infection rate which is not realistic.
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"The number of unknown cases is inherently unknown"
Proper profound right there.
Puts me in mind of the old Ben Elton joke - "the government says that about x% of the adult population is carrying the HIV virus without knowing it. How does the government know? Shouldn't they tell them?"
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Interesting coverage of this point here. Aylward's suggestion that there are not legions of mild, undetected cases is somewhat contentious, although that is indeed his view at this stage:
https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/25/new-data-from-china-buttress-fears-…
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Anyway, the doom mongers can't have it both ways.
Either it's mega infectious but has a lower mortality rate than is being measured, or it's more pathogenic but less infectious than thought.
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Yeah that's the piece I was referring to Laz. Let's hope Kobinger m8 is on the money eh.
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Fair point Chimp. So you reckon it's likely to only affect quarter of the population?
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/feb/27/coronavirus-live-upd…
Japan closes all schools
Saudi cancels hajj for forrins
NHS tells staff to shave beards (although exempt if it's religious or cultural facial fuzz)
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Prof John. Nichols of HKU said fairly early on in the outbreak that he thought this looked like an aggressive cluster disease that, it fought aggressively, would manifest itself in intense localised bursts, and maybe, if Aylward is right, he’s right. I don’t attempt to arbitrate between public health specialists (although I wish I could and may refrain as a public health doctor, just to annoy both u guys and the coronavuvu (a new and powerful enemy for it!)). But I do note that internet chunterers tend to pick the side they agree with. So whatever I see people saying on the internet, I tend to highlight the counter-perspective.
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We also need to account for the fact that outside Hubei, even when calculated on known cases alone, the mortality rate is 0.7%.
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Very hard to say - depends on both the true infectivity which remains unclear and also the public health measures taken to limit spread. We don’t have the capability to do it like China has for obvious reasons
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The other thing Aylward said which was a little disquieting is the availability of ICU beds and ECMO facilities - apparently much better in China than elsewhere. This actually rings true to me, particularly the ECMO point. The use of ECMO remains comparatively rare in the western healthcare systems where I have practiced emergency medicine (Aus and UK). I have seen it but not often. Reading some of the early reports about the Hubei response ECMO seemed to be very much available and in common use. Not sure we would be able to match that
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think that is something on people’s minds, chimpo. I saw this slightly odd “coronavirus readiness map” in the Daily Express which claimed the US and U.K., along with France and Australia, were the best prepared first world countries, more so than say Germany. I found that counter intuitive tbf.
The initial death rate in Italy was high but I assume that was because it was initially spread through hospitals and thus the first batch of infectees includes a lot of people who were already acutely ill.
If Aylward is right about the paucity of undetected infections, which I’m not saying he isn’t, then I would be interested in the explanation of the relatively high number of cases of people coming out of Italy carrying it. You’re telling me they all had contact with the 400 defected cases, most of whom are nowhere near Milan or the ski resorts?
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I agree that this doesn’t really add up.
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Chimp - noted. There clearly must be some - maybe a lot of unreported cases - but we just dont know the order of magnitude and it might turn out not to be as high as expected. On the other hand that would lead to conclusion it may not be as contagious as feared and might be relatively controllable. Tbh looking at the rest of China I think that is very likely the case - albeit it will come at great economic cost.
Sails - yes - sorry should have explained working. Assumed the pandemic penetration was c30% of population. Which is pretty conservative. 1% of 20m is then 200k. So for every per cent in the fatality rate u r looking at 200K dead.
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You are right - doomsters cant have it both ways. But of course it being ‘controllable’ begs the questions with what controls? In China they appear to have it under control - but its taken some incredibly stringent shut downs and changes in behaviour across very large areas. So big economic costs and we are still a way from knowing whether it simply flares up again when controls are relaxed.
If you have intermittent shut downs springing up across the whole global economy to keep a lid on it (and massive changes in personal/consumer behaviours - this is going to be a huge psychic shock) - then there will be profound economic consequences. Which will probably be mostly adverse, at least initially.
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...and if it then settles in and becomes endemic like the cold or flu - but with a fatality rate at say 0.5-1%, then the world changes very profoundly.
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I agree your 13:08 is a feasible if not probable scenario. The only thing that will stop it being feasible is the development of a universal antiviral - something that kills all viruses and only viruses, and can easily be produced, distributed and administered. Ideally safe enough to be sold over the counter. That should be possible with 5 years of total war level, Manhattan Project level coordinates global research, and that should now be prioritised. Kill this shit, and other shit like it, with fire.
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Another point to not on fatality rate is that Chinas demographics are better than ours. Its possible that fatality rate in UK is ultimately worse die to our older population. (Study i saw removing all other variables and just apply current China fatality rates to our demographic suggests a fatality rate in UK which could be twice China’s. Though clearly thats very artificial as so many other variables -I think we probably have fewer smokers/less pollution which will clearly be better.
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Massive heh
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Yes m8 we’ll get right on that can’t believe nobody thought of developing a safe universally effective antiviral in 5 years before now thanks for giving us the idea
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Heh - I did kind of think that too, but anon has a point in that we may be about to learn that biosecurity is the biggest challenge facing our global civilisation. In which case it would warrant a new level of massive investment to seek further and better solutions.
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Civilisation-ruining plague can get in line with civilisation-ruining climate change, civilisation-ruining artificial intelligence, civilisation-ruining wealth inequality and civilisation-ruining porn habits tbh
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If every clever person who is currently researching other shit started researching that instead, we’d get it done. Even if all the clever people currently researching novel ways to blow other people up stopped doing that and started researching the universal antiviral - we’d get it done. And yes I know weapons engineers aren’t virologists but one of the emerging theories of scientific practice is that it is, or may out of necessity become, easier for scientists to retool than is commonly perceived.
Another thing, chimpazoid. The Italian “patient one’l, who needed intensive care, was a very fit man of 38 who ran marathons and played football. His ailment bolsters my belief that doing vigorous exercise is very counterproductive in terms of facing respiratory disease. Big gulpfuls of cold air will inflame the lungs anyway, making them raw and receptive to infection, and if you’ve got the lurgy in your upper respiratory system you’re gulping loads of it down deep into your chest. Moral: any attempts I might otherwise have made at exercise above and beyond a gentle stroll (in any event limited) are suspended until this blows over.
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Very sensible Laz. I would prescribe a graded programme of sitting down.
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My old secondary school has apparently been closed this week as some students who have just come back from a trip to Italy are showing symptoms.
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Drifting off the point a bit but I actually don’t agree with this - the proposed universal antiviral would be an incredibly difficult problem (if not actually impossible) and those are not necessarily amenable to simply more and more resources and more and more clever people. If that were the case we would have cured cancer by now.
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was every fooking body in Italy last week? fooking everywhere is shut because someone went to Italy. News flash dick heads, the skiing is shit in italy anyway.
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"although I wish I could and may refrain as a public health doctor"
I deffo think you should refrain in the manner you suggest
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ever been to Cervinia laz? top skiing to be had there
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You’ll be thinking that the other side of your face when the world needs even more saving from viral doom than it does at the mo, as I’d be ace at public health.
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I have
Bloodh awkward runs back to the village what what. Agree the high stuff there is quite good tho tbf
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heh for laz's 13.57
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I love how Laz is trying desperately and failing to get "coronavuvu" to stick.
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yuvuvu wot?
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u r weird sometimes m99
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Friend in VN sent me this interview with an Israeli doctor who's been helping coordinate the VN govt's response to Corona: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-what-israel-can-learn-from-vietnam-on-how-to-beat-the-coronavirus-1.8589685
They seemingly have it under control atm, but he concedes there are cases have not been identified, and the control they have is likely to be brief because political pressure has forced the VN govt to reopen their Chinese border.
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The thing is with all the people coming back from Italy and “showing symptoms” - a lot of them will be bog standard colds/flus etc. We’ve had 4 people self isolate at work - all 4 have been tested and are negative. They just have winter bugs.
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