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fumio
Posted - 06 August 2018 19:16
Good.
131 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 07 August 2018 09:18
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And yet somehow the party didn't want her airing her defence. Funny that.
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 07 August 2018 09:26
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I love the way they understood MH was deadly serious, dug in, not to be messed with and had MDR on record throughout and somehow felt they could misrepresent that she had expressed regret without her having done so.

Absolute amateur hour.
131 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 07 August 2018 09:37
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Always good that, accusing women of being hysterical.

Doubling down and accusing a Jewish woman of being hysterical with regards to anti-Semitism wins you the Corbyn Loyalty prize for the week.
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 07 August 2018 09:40
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Let's assume you're right Donald, and in fact she has no genuine grievance about the AS in the LP, but rather she's whipping this up in a nasty Jewish way to harm Jeremy.

How do you explain Jeremy attending an event on Holocaust Remembrance Day comparing Israel's actions to those of the Nazis? And how do you explain him apologising for it? And why do you think it is a disciplinary offence to call someone a racist for doing something like this? (I'd suggest whether or not he is a racist, it's obviously a fair allegation to be rebutted given the facts so far)

January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 09:49
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Can someone point me to the party rule that says "thou shalt never criticise the glorious leader"?

Trimp I think the issue here is the rank hypocrisy of fast tracking her disciplinary case whilst Corbyn supporters who've said the same or worse have had no action take against them rather than what she actually said.
Jon Snow
Posted - 07 August 2018 09:50
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Sounds angry rather than hysterical to me, Donald.
Tee Pottt
Posted - 07 August 2018 09:51
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Cant this lot all apologise to everyone for everything, adopt this def of anti seminism ( comparing the Israelis to Nazis is stupid and insensitive at best blah blah blah).

It is perfectly possible to criticize the Israelis without comparing them to Nazi's!


Most people in the country don't give a **** about any of this but the labour party is allowing itself to become obsessed with this subject.

There are more important things to be dealing with at the moment than this pile of crap.


Typical Westminster bubble bollocks,
Jon Snow
Posted - 07 August 2018 09:52
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I'm not right wing and I'm supporting her. HTH.
Perfidious Porpoise
Posted - 07 August 2018 09:55
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Has someone asked for a comment/statement from Red Ken?
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 09:59
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I don't care whether he's a racist or not and I've been called far worse things. It's a clear sign though that no dissent is allowed if the leader cannot simply ignore it and move on and feels the need to go after her. You really want the shadow cabinet to all sit there nodding silently agreeing with anything Jezza says for fear that any kind of criticism will result in expulsion from the party as that's where Momentum would like us to end up?

Trimp do you not agree that it's rather odd that other people who have said similar things but who support Jezza have not been subject to disciplinary proceedings despite numerous complaints?
Buzz.
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:01
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It's perfectly clear that Corbyn wanted her matter fast tracked so as to ensure that her name was cleared at the earliest possible opportunity.
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:01
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I think if he's not an anti-Semite he's spectacularly stupid and incompetent.

If any right-wing politician selected his friends and associates and they turned out to be raving loony racists in such a great proportion, the inference would (rightly) be drawn they are a loony racist too.

I think he is so committed to the Palestinian cause (fair enough, I don't support Israel at all) that he is unable to see when either his own actions can be seen as AS or when his mental friends are raving anti-Semites. And when you're in charge of a party, allowing AS to go unchallenged for so long is as bad as doing it yourself.
Jon Snow
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:01
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She's Jewish and is watching a party she has served for decades being destroyed by a one-eyed man who repeatedly makes comments and takes actions that look a lot like anti-Semitism and who has stood by whilst his detractors are pursued with more vigour than his unquestioning devotees. She might have some cause for being very angry.

I don't know if he's racist or not, but I can entirely see why some people think he is.
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:15
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Trimp have you watched PMQ's? I think half the party has jeered and heckled and abused its own leader and the leader of the opposition at some point in recent times.

If I called you a racist at work would you:

(a) ignore it and just think I was a bit of a tvvat; or

(b) launch a full complaint to HR?
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:16
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If the party had launched action against all members who had complaints made about them there would be nothing for Hodge to milk.
Jon Snow
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:16
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You appear to be one of those unquestioning devotees, Trimp.
131 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:20
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He just helps them out when they're busy.
Buzz.
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:24
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Are the relative positions of a couple of elected representatives and leader of and member of a political party actually being compared to an employer and employee here?
Buzz.
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:27
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So it's a discussion for fuckwits then
Jon Snow
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:32
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Heh. As soon as you use terms like "people like you" - particularly to someone you've interacted with on the interweb in limited terms twice - you've lost the argument.

If you'd like to try actually reading what I've written, I've not said he was racist. HTH
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:35
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Fine Buzz I'll amend for you.

If I'm a member of the yacht club and you're the Commodore and I called you a racist in the club bar would you:

(a) ignore it and just think I was a bit of a tvvat; or

(b) launch a full complaint to the relevant committee?
Buzz.
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:38
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(b).

Obviously.
Buzz.
Posted - 07 August 2018 10:39
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Although to be fair, given the gammonry in most yacht clubs, the chances are the commodore is a massive racist.
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 11:12
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You know that campaigning against certain forms or racism doesn't guarantee that you aren't a racist on some other basis?
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 07 August 2018 11:15
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I saw a bloke on the telly in the US campaigning for WHITE MENS' RIGHTS.

Must mean he's a committed campaigner for black womens' rights as well, eh Donald?

FFS.
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 07 August 2018 11:17
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I'll answer the question Donald.

I used to think he wasn't a racist.

Now I think the evidence is so stacked up, he's either an actual anti-Semite (on balance I think he probably doesn't know this) or he's so incompetent or stupid that his incompetence and stupidity have caused enough harm to Jews that he might as be an actual anti-Semite.
fumio
Posted - 07 August 2018 11:34
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He sees the issue in geopolitical terms. Which is pretty dumb in the circs, to put it mildly.
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 11:39
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Trimp I don't know the man personally and just going on what I've read but yes some of his apparent views on Israel and the Jews border on being racist. I'm sure he wouldn't have supported that wall mural if it had had another group of people playing a board game on the backs of the oppressed.
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 07 August 2018 11:46
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Yes Donald. He doesn't know why what he's done is anti-Semitic. At first he doubled down, now the penny is starting to drop.

It isn't common for people with prejudices not to understand them.
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 07 August 2018 11:46
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*UNcommon
trentdarby
Posted - 07 August 2018 13:32
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The fact that you have John McDonnell on the Today Programme making errors like “we are an anti-racist and anti-Semitic party” whilst a slip of the tongue does still suggest that those on the Corbynite side of the party consider anti-Semitism to be something other than racism.

Do I think Corbyn is a racist? Not sure.

Does the fact that he campaigned against apartheid in South Africa mean he’s not an anti-Semite? No it just means he was right on that issue.

Did he book an event in the House of Commons on Holocaust Memorial Day in which speakers equated the state of Israel to the Nazis and would that offend the example in the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism which he is refusing to adopt? Yes
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 13:41
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I wouldn't be at all surprised if Trump turned out to be completely racist and I suspect that Boris like many Tories of a certain age harbours some politically incorrect views. However, there is a difference between criticising a country for its actual actions and critcising all people who share that country's majority religion for that country's actions.

What I do now is that Margaret Hodge is personally acquainted with Jezza and so is probably far better placed than I am to decide if he might be a bit racist.
INSERT USER NAME HERE
Posted - 07 August 2018 13:41
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Corbyn is clearly an antisemite: he has a long history of associating with antisemites, holocaust deniers, conspiracy theorists, hate preachers and nasty loons of various types. He calls genocidal terrorists his friends.

The question is really whether his hatred of Jews is driven by his feelings on the Israel / Palestine conflict or whether it is really the other way round.

As Leader of the Opposition he should be bossing this shambolic weak government: take a proper position on Brexit, propose policies on health, education, crime, housing and all sorts of issues that actually matter to people in the UK. Instead, he is focused on telling the tiny minority Jewish community that he knows how to best define antisemitism and arguing about a conflict thousands of miles away that has no real impact on this country. Why?
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 13:42
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Trimp the changes are an issue because adopting the full definition would result in Seumas Milne being disciplined for some of the articles he has written in years gone by along with others. The definition has been adjusted to avoid having to investigate some party members.
trentdarby
Posted - 07 August 2018 13:50
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Trimp - the definition is important because it is the way in which a minority group defines racism against itself. I doubt Jeremy Corbyn would say to any other racial group that its own definition of racism against it was invalid and that those accused of that racism should be able to define what that looked like instead and knew better.
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 13:54
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Trimp I refer you to my earlier comments. I am not acquainted with Jezza and haven't studied every word he has ever uttered and just going on hearsay.
Excession
Posted - 07 August 2018 14:10
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'Jeremy attending an event on Holocaust Remembrance Day comparing Israel's actions to those of the Nazis?'

I'm no fan of Corbyn, but wasn't the person at that event who made those comparisons a Jewish Auschwitz survivor?

I think someone with that background is fully entitled to draw whatever comparisons he wants to be honest, and sharing a platorm with such a person should never be regarded as anti-semitic.

Claiming that a Jewish Holocaust survivor appearing at an event contaminates all who attend with anti-semitism because he criticises Israel (in effect I suppose claiming that the abused have become the abusers) is clearly an attempt to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism and so should be resisted by any rational person.
trentdarby
Posted - 07 August 2018 14:12
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What I set out is not “some platitude” but the Macpherson principle. Perhaps you might want to acquaint yourself with that Trimp?

What is it within the IHRA that you are so scared of?
Hot Felon
Posted - 07 August 2018 14:15
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It is not possible to be at the same time both pro Israel and antisemitic
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 14:17
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Trimp once again I haven't read the collected works of Mr. Milne and I'm merely going on what has been reported elsewhere.
INSERT USER NAME HERE
Posted - 07 August 2018 14:25
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Donald, you mean, aside from the general absurdity and arrogance of Corbyn deciding that the Labour party, rather than the Jewish community, are best placed to define antisemitism, you mean?

Or the downright political stupidity in not simply accepting a well established definition and cracking on with leading the opposition because he is, like, Leader of the Opposition?

Well, if you are really interested, then there's much on the web about the IHRA definition, but essentially, Labour has taken out examples relating to Israel. Things like saying that Israel is fundamentally racist or comparing it to the Nazis. Things that, unless you feel a real need to say Israel is fundamentally racist and like the Nazis, you could happily leave in your definition and still carry on criticising Israel...
INSERT USER NAME HERE
Posted - 07 August 2018 14:48
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... but of course that is not what they are saying. They might well be saying "this law is racist" or "this government is racist" or "Netanyahu is racist", but they are not saying that "our whole country in itself is a fundamentally racist endeavour".

Fr Dougal McGuire
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:01
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Whatever the reasons behind it, this is a very strange hill for the Corbynite leadership to choose to fight to the death on. Sensible thing would be to adopt IHRA and move on. I wonder why they don't.

Chambers
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:06
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Why is Corbyn even getting involved in all of this. Is he a World statesman all of a sudden?, I hadn't noticed. Focus on your own Country old man.
INSERT USER NAME HERE
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:09
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No, not really. If you are unable to debate about Israel without saying that it is fundamentally a racist endeavour or comparing it to the Nazis, then in all likelihood you are an antisemite.
Chambers
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:16
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No offence, but I really couldn't give much of a toss about Israel or Palestine. There is pressing business going on here over the next few months.
Fr Dougal McGuire
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:18
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TBF nothing brings out the complete hmongtards on both sides like an Israel/Palestine discussion.
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:20
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Trimp I'd have no problem with that provided they offered a reasoned justification that wasn't just "Israel is inherently evil and must always be the bad guy". I had no problem with people claiming South Africa was a racist state because of apartheid.
Wyn Win
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:37
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I agree with almost everyone except Trimp. He's an anti Semite. Which makes him a racist.

And Chambers' point is reasonable. Why is everyone on the NEC so obsessed with Israel. They should be providing a proper opposition here to the worst government in history and all they are doing is making life easy for them.

The obsession with Israel is what makes him ant Semitic. Why doesn't he condemn other states for poor treatment of minorities? He wouldn't even condemn Syria for killing its own people.
Fr Dougal McGuire
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:42
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I've often wondered why so many on the Left obsess about the Palestinian cause. No doubt they got a crappy deal but then so did the Tamils, Rohingya, Tibetans, Uighers, and many others.

I guess in part it's because the media report on it so much, which I think is because it's easy to report from the West Bank and make it back in time for happy hour at the American Colony Hotel cocktail bar. Somewhat less comfortable reporting from Southern Sudan or the mountains of Yemen.
Wyn Win
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:46
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I agree. But it's not the Palestinian cause they obsess about. It's Israel. The Palestinians have had problems with Syria, Jordan, Egypt but nobody hears about those. In fact, when the West Bank was part of Jordan, did anyone mention that they should get their own state then?
Perfidious Porpoise
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:47
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"It is not possible to be at the same time both pro Israel and anti-Semitic"

You'd think so, but then the Trump administration ...
Fr Dougal McGuire
Posted - 07 August 2018 20:26
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Pertinent article by Douglas Murray:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/jeremy-corbyn-and-the-cynical-tactic s-of-the-left/
131 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 08 August 2018 10:11
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It's not behind a paywall unless you have used up your quote. I didn't have you down as a regular Spectator reader, Trimp.
131 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 08 August 2018 10:12
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"...quota...", sorry.
Gloucester
Posted - 08 August 2018 10:39
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FFS of course Johnson and Trump are racist and sexist. So is Nigel Farage and 90% of the Brexit campaign.

Question is whether Corbyn, who generally fights against racism, has a blind spot when it comes to antisemitism. Fairly clear he does & also fairly clear it isn't right for Labour to allow bigotry in its own ranks just because everyone else is doing it.
Wyn Win
Posted - 08 August 2018 11:11
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Corbyn doesn't fight racism. He makes a noise about some forms of racism.

He's anti Semitic. The only question is whether he is because he hates Israel or whether he hates Israel because he's anti Semitic. It doesn't really matter as the result is the same.
Wyn Win
Posted - 08 August 2018 11:49
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What a very clever argument Donald. You have as much skill in debating as the real Trump. As usual, a Corbyn defender hurls abuse when he is accused of these things because there is no defence.
Wyn Win
Posted - 08 August 2018 12:14
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Actually they are pretty much all saying that he is a racist but because you are too stupid to understand/read you haven't noticed.

So don't engage with me. I would rather not talk to people like you anyway.