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ben stokes
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rogermellie
Posted - 06 August 2018 15:30
screwed isnt he?

sack the tosser asap
Oslama
Posted - 06 August 2018 15:32
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but he's our tosser, and quite good
Spurius Odus
Posted - 06 August 2018 15:34
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This is presumably prosecution case only so far.

The two gay men he is said to have abused claimed last year he was defending them, all a bit odd.
Stixta
Posted - 06 August 2018 16:13
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That was my first thought, Spurius.
Colonel Pantyfloofle
Posted - 06 August 2018 16:16
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As far as I can tell it’s just a drunken scrap for which, if guilty, he will get a high level community order or worst case a suspended sentence.

The people he was scrapping with are also on trial for the same thing no?

Less serious than Cantona imo. The guy is only 27 and probably get suspended from cricket for 6 months-ish?
Colonel Pantyfloofle
Posted - 06 August 2018 16:19
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The alleged homophobic stuff is bad but presumably only part of the prosecutions case to paint him as a bad character.

The gay guys weren’t part of the affray?
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 06 August 2018 16:29
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Affray is quite a serious offence.

If convicted, I'd expect him to serve some porridge, especially having pleaded not guilty.
intheregions
Posted - 06 August 2018 16:29
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wot spurius sed, the gay guys publicly said at the time that he was sticking up for them because the other two defendants were giving them grief. the other two defendants came at them/stokes with a bottle at one stage, so this bit of the prosecution case is a little surprising, if true
131 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 06 August 2018 16:39
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rogermellie
Posted - 06 August 2018 16:40
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Bouncer Andrew Cunningham explained to the pair the club was closed and they would not be allowed in.

However, an "obviously upset" Mr Stokes became "aggressive" and insulted Mr Cunningham about his appearance, jurors heard.

Mr Cunningham said Mr Stokes's attention then turned to two "openly gay" men - Kai Barry and William O'Connor - outside the venue.

He claimed the cricketer had mimicked their voices and mannerisms in what he described as "a derogatory way".
131 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 06 August 2018 16:46
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Ah, so it's not their evidence yet then. Carry on.
Jabberwangy
Posted - 06 August 2018 17:17
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Nightclub bouncer eh? up with vicars and judges in terms of trust and respect they are.
rogermellie
Posted - 06 August 2018 17:30
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Less serious than Cantona imo.?

Are you insane - cantona did some sort of lame kung foo kick - stokes beat the living crap out of someone
fumio
Posted - 06 August 2018 17:31
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It’s not even half time yet ffs
Montagueh
Posted - 07 August 2018 14:53
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Heh - bouncer refers to Stokes throughout his testimony as "the ginger guy"...
Oslama
Posted - 07 August 2018 14:54
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heh
intheregions
Posted - 07 August 2018 14:58
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[a]cantona did some sort of lame kung foo kick - stokes beat the living crap out of someone[/a]

yes, but cantona's was aimed at a guy in the stands of a football match, whereas stokes beat up a guy who had moments before come at him with a bottle.
Stixta
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:06
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The bouncer seems to have it in for him.
🚲 🚲 🚲
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:11
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"Mr Stokes and his team-mate Alex Hales had left the nightclub at 00:46 but returned at 02:08."

What do you think they were up to?
Groot
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:16
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He told the jury Mr Stokes offered him £300 to be let in, but after he refused the all-rounder became "spiteful and angry" and insulted Mr Cunningham's gold teeth and tattoos.


couldn't help but lol

"ha! look at your gold tooth! it's so golden like a miniature mouth lemon"
January Sails
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:21
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I think that tells you all you need to know about said bouncer...
fumio
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:29
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"What do you think they were up to?"

About that far.
Colonel Pantyfloofle
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:35
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Wot itr said.
Colonel Pantyfloofle
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:36
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If everyone in a first-offence pub scrap goes to prison, we are going to need a lot more prisons.
Obadiah Hakeswill
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:44
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Looking solely at the prosecution case, he might be in a spot of bother. But let's hear the defence first.

(Also, we're significantly worse at cricket without Stokes, so he should be exempt from a custodial sentence on that basis alone.)
Montagueh
Posted - 07 August 2018 15:50
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Heh - the prosecution case which seems pretty much solely based on the testimony of 2 scrotes coming at him with a knife and a broken sign being knocked down with a punch each and a chippy bouncer who refers to him throughout his testimony as "the ginger guy"...then we'll move onto the defence, where the gay couple will testify Stokes stood up for them and Hales will say he acted in self-defence...
🚲 🚲 🚲
Posted - 07 August 2018 16:05
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There is also the video footage .
intheregions
Posted - 07 August 2018 16:18
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yes, although that looks a little less like self-defence (in that the imminent threat to Stokes had been averted) and more like stand-your-ground territory. Plus it also looks terrible because there enough swinging and missing to make Dwayne Bravo blush
bananaman returns
Posted - 07 August 2018 16:25
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I would be amazed if the bouncer's testimony is anything other than a balanced and full account of the entire incident. They are well known for their objectivity and willingness to brush-off drunken banter from patrons with a laugh and a cheery send-off.
Jabberwangy
Posted - 07 August 2018 16:31
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A lad in my year at uni, Tony (not a m7), got a bit lairy with the bouncers of a certain nightclub in C'bridgge. The bouncer told him he couldn't come in. Tony said his dad could buy the whole street. Tony got the absolute fck kicked out of him. Everyone watched (I wasn't there obv, I was studying). No1 stepped in. All of Tony's grad pictures looked like rocky after fighting.
bananaman returns
Posted - 07 August 2018 16:38
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The bouncer has a tattoo under his eye, so the judge will need to direct that all his evidence is disregarded anyway based on the legal maxim "you can't trust a wrong 'un".
Tangent Boy
Posted - 07 August 2018 16:50
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Think the video footage is his biggest problem. I wouldn't be too concerned by the testimony of a bouncer who says that you seemed angry because he wouldn't let you in or the testimony of two co defendants who armed themselves.

The other two men are going to be key. Think it really hangs on what went on in the exchange after the initial scuffle. Should be interesting.
GMT
Posted - 07 August 2018 18:42
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But also TB on whether any objective evidence (recordings, sound) exists of what led up to the fight. If it's a clash of witness evidence with nothing objective to back up who said what (including the alleged homophobic comments - nothing objective has been produced yet to back up what is alleged) then looks like reasonable doubt to me.

If he has a problem I'm inclined to agree with ITR; so far given lack of objective evidence and context about what led up to the fight as Monts says he looks to be OK. That may alter when the other two men give evidence but as Monts also says it doesn't look like anyone is blameless/coming to this with clean hands. The problem may be that the reaction was justifiable or certainly within reasonable doubt but the extent of the physical reponse as per the video might be seen as being OTT.

At the moment though it looks like the prosecution are short of what's needed to me.
rogermellie
Posted - 07 August 2018 19:02
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on what planet is that reaction acceptable and within the law
fumio
Posted - 07 August 2018 19:05
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He’ll be lucky to get a suspended sentence.

V bad for the side.
GMT
Posted - 08 August 2018 13:56
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The evidence from the PCSO this morning, which admittedly to be fair includes a statement that Stokes was teh main aggressor confirms that Hale, one of the two victims was approaching Stokes with a bloody big metal pole.

The physical response to a bloke coming at you with a big metal pole is a matter for the jury but entirely plausible, if not likely, certainly on a criminal burden of proof to argue that Stokes response was acceptable.
Oslama
Posted - 08 August 2018 14:02
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he tried to get back in by back handing 300 quid

respek
left-arm wheels
Posted - 08 August 2018 14:49
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As I understand it the gays will not be testifying

Separately I thought that Hale was said to have picked up the leg of the street sign after stokes had knocked him out. Doesn’t sound probable but much of the reporting is v confusing. If that is what happens then it doesn’t excuse what stokes did beforehand obv...
Oslama
Posted - 08 August 2018 14:51
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smoking you mean?
Tangent Boy
Posted - 08 August 2018 14:55
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GMT, I agree that would be helpful, but I think what the pros are looking at running is that he was in a mood, may very well have had legitimate cause to defend himself to start off with but then went over the top because he was looking for a fight anyway. That's why I think the little hiatus in the video is key. I may not have seen all the footage of course. I don't remember seeing the leg of the street sign.

Bad for Stokes if the gay chaps aren't testifying (unless that's a tactical one by his team and it would be bad for him if they did of course).
Tangent Boy
Posted - 08 August 2018 14:56
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Smoking is terrible. All bad people smoke.
Stixta
Posted - 08 August 2018 15:00
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Why wouldn’t the gay guys be testifying?
GMT
Posted - 08 August 2018 15:06
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Interesting. Go right back to Spurius Odus' post almost at the start.
It was certainly reported (whether correctly or not) at the time of the arrests that Stokes had been defending the gay blokes.
Whereas it's now being said that Stokes was dishing out homophobic abuse, but with no objective evidence (yet at least - if any exists clearly this is a problem for Stokes) it would seem to confirm that.
If LAW is right that is very interesting. Presumably a decision has been taken not to put them on the stand - but if so by whom the CPS or Stokes legal team?
All a bit odd as Spurius Odus said at the beginning but do you think that TB? If they aren't testifying, for whatever reason, any doubt/uncertainty as to why not surely makes an NG verdict more not less likely?
131 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 08 August 2018 15:08
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The 'reports' were in fact comments made by the gentlemen he was said to have helped:

[a]https://news.sky.com/story/ben-stokes-was-defending-us-from-homophobic -abuse-say- gay-men-11101889[/a]
131 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 08 August 2018 15:09
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Tangent Boy
Posted - 08 August 2018 15:16
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Only bad in the sense that I thought that he would call them as defence witnesses given what I had understood their version to be (what Spurious said). So he doesn't have an independent witness (Alex Hales is his team mate after all). So I'd think it's neutral at best for Stokes.

If the pros aren't calling them then it's because they don't add to their case. Plus, any variation to what was reported at the time could be the subject of XX by the defence. If the defence aren't calling them I can only think that their real version is more ambiguous than the reported version.

It's really hard to formulate a decent opinion on this. Court reporting in criminal matters is generally suspect at best. I'd love to be on the jury.
Stixta
Posted - 08 August 2018 15:18
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Police officer saying that Stokes said at the time he was defending the gay guys
January Sails
Posted - 08 August 2018 15:29
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Stix he's hardly going to tell the police just after he's been arrested that he was also taking the piss out of the gay guys when his defence is that he was defending them.
Man from Del Monte
Posted - 08 August 2018 15:34
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Isn't the white knight stuff largely irrelevant (save to the extent that it goes to credibility)?

You don't have licence to batter someone, even if they're dishing out homophobic abuse.
Stixta
Posted - 08 August 2018 15:37
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I’m not talking about when he was arrested, I’m talking about when the police officer first spoke to him.
January Sails
Posted - 08 August 2018 16:59
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I've never been arrested but pretty sure that the the first time they speak to you is just before they arrest you ;-)

I assume you mean in his first formal interview but that's also not a time he's likely to point out a big hole in his defence having thought about how he might get out of the situation he's in.
Kimmy
Posted - 08 August 2018 17:10
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On the 10pm news last night there was cctv footage showing stokes doing a crude imitation of "campness" - couldn't tell whether this was meant to be offensive, or jokey and taken in good spirits by the gay guys. Also plenty of footage showing stokes lashing out at the other two, plus Hales kicking someone in the head (who was on the ground).

Someone had also filmed (part of) the incident on his mobile.

Looked pretty bad to me.

Re the bouncer, he was probably the only sober person there so his testimony will have weight.
3-ducks
Posted - 08 August 2018 18:05
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Look at it this way: our prisons are full, he'd only be in for a short time anyway, and surely it's better to have him taking out his aggression on foreign cricketers on a pitch, than British subjects on the high street?
Oslama
Posted - 08 August 2018 18:22
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community service cricket lessons
3-ducks
Posted - 08 August 2018 18:23
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Sounds good to me. 50 hours Boycott-style forward defensive.

Propa krikkit.
Oslama
Posted - 08 August 2018 18:33
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Sachin was coaching at Lords the other day

"no pressue kids"
Stixta
Posted - 08 August 2018 18:35
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1. Stix he's hardly going to tell the police just after he's been arrested

2. From the BBC:

Footage from a body camera worn by PC Stacey Alway, who arrested Mr Stokes, was shown to the jury.
She told the court the cricketer had been "squaring up" to a group of men at the side of the road as she approached them.
"I didn't know who these males were because I was unable to identify them," PC Alway said.
"From the moment I approached [Mr Stokes] he calmed down and he was completely compliant with me."
The court heard that when PC Alway said to Mr Stokes "a guy over there was covered in blood and I've been told you punched him", he replied "because he was abusing my two friends for being gay".


So pipe down.
3-ducks
Posted - 08 August 2018 18:40
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The man's a thug but we do need him tbf.
Oslama
Posted - 08 August 2018 18:46
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agreed he doesnt come out of looking good whatever happens, apart from in the eyes of the west stand at headingly. Mind you he is a kiwi
fumio
Posted - 08 August 2018 21:44
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What if BS was lying about defending the honour of the gay couple???

Which is why he’s not called them?
Tom Linorder
Posted - 08 August 2018 21:52
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But one of them supported his claim afterwards.

He should be in the team for Lord’s tbh
fumio
Posted - 08 August 2018 21:55
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In a statement not since repeated though. Maybe he decided BS is not his friend after all.
Tom Linorder
Posted - 08 August 2018 21:58
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The next couple of days will be interesting for sure. To use a cricketing analogy, never judge a score until both teams have batted.
Capt Haddock
Posted - 09 August 2018 12:39
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it really looks bad on Stokes.

He appears to have kicked someone already lying on the floor

So much for self defence.
3-ducks
Posted - 09 August 2018 12:40
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Plum LBW surely? Can't see the judge turning this one down.
intheregions
Posted - 09 August 2018 13:03
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one of the guys has been acquitted, judge directing jury that there's no case to answer
GMT
Posted - 09 August 2018 13:30
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Yes, Hale, ITR.

Think that must be taken to be bad news for Stokes, or at least indicate the judge is strongly against him, though of course ultimately it will be what the jury think that matters here.
Stixta
Posted - 09 August 2018 13:38
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Has anyone watched the bodycam footage (I can’t while at work)?
intheregions
Posted - 09 August 2018 13:59
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yes stix, it's not particularly revealing. he appears calm, compliant and pleased to know that there is CCTV in the street
Stixta
Posted - 09 August 2018 14:14
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Well that’s a positive then
rogermellie
Posted - 09 August 2018 18:45
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I'm not sure he's pleased with the news there is CCTV it's open to interpretation...

left-arm wheels
Posted - 10 August 2018 11:09
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I have just watched the bodycam footage and wouldn't describe his reaction to learning of the presence of cctv cameras as "pleased". pensive if anything.

judging by the tweets from the court his XX isn't going very well. lots of convenient memory lapses and unconvincing sounding answers...
Oslama
Posted - 10 August 2018 11:35
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he asked the cop if there were cameras, i suggest cos he knew that wouldnt be good news

a brawler i once knew would always avoid them
intheregions
Posted - 10 August 2018 11:43
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i'm judging by the fact that he said "sweet" when the PC told him there were cameras, although i grant you it could be taken both ways
Oslama
Posted - 10 August 2018 16:59
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he's claiming memory loss despite saying he wasnt drunk, which is odd
old git roundabout
Posted - 13 August 2018 10:47
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whatever the verdict, he'll not be keeping any commercial sponsorships.
GMT
Posted - 13 August 2018 12:47
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BBC website reporting prosecution counsel saying he may have been acting in self defence to start with (I wonder if that is enough of a concession if the jury really want to find him NG that they can now in good conscience do so?) but that the nature of his response was deplorable and disproportionate even if that is the case.

That's the issue really I guess; some reaction and retaliation was acceptable, but did he (the obv problem with his case) just go too far for too long.

Wellington
Posted - 13 August 2018 12:49
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Would be good if the judge sentences him to 20 years but says he can have a year off for every wicket he takes in the next test.
🚲 🚲 🚲
Posted - 13 August 2018 14:01
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That would be a terrible deal for stokes wellers.
GMT
Posted - 14 August 2018 10:59
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Jury sent out about 10.15am to consider verdicts
The Nutsacker Ballet
Posted - 14 August 2018 11:08
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Affray in and of itself isn’t very serious, Pinko. Your former team-mate, of the Leeds parish, for about 10secs in the cooler for it - suspended.
The Nutsacker Ballet
Posted - 14 August 2018 11:10
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Like hot women (hot being defined as an 8.5 or above), talented and nationally necessary sportsmen should get a pass for all criminal offences. Unconditional discharge pls
January Sails
Posted - 14 August 2018 11:10
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I see he's now blaming Hales for some of the injuries to the other parties.
Oslama
Posted - 14 August 2018 11:13
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unless youre a trained boxer, the "red mist" going too far charge seems a bit harsh to me, esp after a few vodkas
131 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 14 August 2018 11:14
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Not quite, his defence is merely saying you can't, beyond reasonable doubt, be sure it was all Stokes.
ruftytufty
Posted - 14 August 2018 11:45
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He could surely argue that he's used to building partnerships with Hales under pressure to hit all around the ground. Has anyone drawn a wagon wheel of his scoring shots?
Tangent Boy
Posted - 14 August 2018 11:56
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Prosecutors are funny old things. They can concede that it starts as self defence, but have this idea that people who have had no training have a good understanding of when danger is passed.

For most people, being threatened with a bottle is a very unusual event and not one that will lead to excellent judgement on this issue. The ex military defendant rather illustrated that in his evidence when he talked about knowing that you don't have to go as far as Stokes did - (he said he knew this from his time in the military).

I'm not sure I would feel that the threat had passed until either (a) the police arrived, (b) they had run away or (c) they were both unconscious.
Tangent Boy
Posted - 14 August 2018 11:57
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Wellington
Posted - 13 August 2018 12:49 Report as offensive Report Offensive
Would be good if the judge sentences him to 20 years but says he can have a year off for every wicket he takes in the next test.

He'd be gutted he missed the Lords test if this were the outcome.