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Returning to work after mat leave...
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CurrantAccount
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:17
How did you find it?

Did you go back full time? I think I may have been a bit ambitious with my returningness.
CurrantAccount
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:18
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HNY and Xmas etc - phone decided was a 'bad request' so just stopped opening the site - now I've got the work laptop in full laptopping mode I've got rof back !

Misshoolie
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:20
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Bloody rough it how I found it the first time

Started a new job, full time when hooligan #1 was 10 months. It didn't help that he wasn't a good sleeper

OTOH getting dressed in actual clothes, putting on make up and speaking to adults did me the world of good.

Misshoolie
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:20
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Happy Chanukah Xmas and HNY etc
Queenie E
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:22
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Fine both times. It’s weird for the first day or so but once you get into your new routine it’s actaully quite nice to play with grown up as for a bit.
stardust
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:22
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And waiting for Lydia's reply in 3.....2.....1....
Tricksy Woo
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:26
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I couldn't wait to get back. Had 5 months leave with Red after he was born and flying up the walls at 3 months. I went back full time with 1 day wfh but after 2 or 3 months I ditched the wfh. I did all of the night shenanigans too. It was tough and looking back I don't know how I managed with so little sleep but I'm glad I did it.
rogermellie
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:31
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Lydia was back to work 6 minutes after post partum. I mean what sort of lazy good for nothing would take time off to bond with their children
Jethro Oldenoughtoknowbetter
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:35
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Actually she was checking her Blackberry and sending messages during the birth.
Testarossa
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:03
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I think the problem is is that you won't know how you feel until you do it...

I'm always amazed at how many people are actively surprised (and tell you so) that someone will return to work full time, having assumed that all mums everywhere must want to take a step back.
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:04
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She gave birth, handed the baby to nanny and then birthed the placenta in the taxi on the way to a meeting
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:08
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My supervising partner at a firm in Manchester went back after the statutory 2 week period, and told me she still had stiches in her vagina when she did.
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:10
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The thing is none of this matters - sociopathic parents who want to sprog and immediately dump
their child with strangers and not bond or be there for them will typically beget ghastly children just like them so it doesn’t matter.
Nexis
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:13
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TBH, I found it really hard. I went back FT, into a new job, when the Nexlette was 6 months. She didn't sleep through for another 13 months, so I was on my knees. I hated being apart from her and on reflection it was too soon. Discovering some time later that part of the reason I was so knackered and feeling crappy was that I was quite anaemeic helped a bit as I could do something about the physical issue.

I wouldn't have functioned as a SAHM - that's just not me - but I think I asked to much of myself by going back to work how I did after what I had been through (very tricky pregnancy with uncertainty day to day as to whether the baby would make it, prem delivery, nicu, etc).
Queenie E
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:16
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Darcy that kind of view is as fucked up as Lydia’s world view. Everyone is different and needs to find a solution that works for them.
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:17
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Everyone is different. I have v old fashioned values on this topic. Sorry.
old git roundabout
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:18
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quite right, Queenie. Glad I never had to face that dilemma.
Rhamnousia
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:18
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it's funny how reactionary gay men can be, even while living out completely non-trad lifestyles themselves
Misshoolie
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:19
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You're not actually sorry are you?
Martian Law
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:19
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Hopefully, you haven't gone back to work for Dentons
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:24
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Look if a couple plan to have a child I deeply believe someone should be home with that child for most of the first four years. If they can’t do that they shouldn’t have one. I’m not discussing the rights and wrongs of a woman going back to work.

My life is probably more “normal” than yours Clergham as a heterosexual woman: I have three children a and a Barbour.

Thanks for raising my sexuality yet again.
Rhamnousia
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:28
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mate, if you want respect for your lifestyle then start by demonstrating some for others. you act as though everyone in the world except you should dwell in some Victorian dystopia. it's all part of the same parcel - gay couples can raise children, women can make choices about their own lives, racism also bad.

the idea of having a parent who can afford to spend four years doing nothing but mimsying around with a bored child is a preposterous spoilt middle class notion
Rhamnousia
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:28
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"nobody but me and Kate Middleton should breed!"
Misshoolie
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:29
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Heh @ you accusing other people of being bigoted. You've just told half a dozen people on this thread their children shouldn't exist.

Fortunately I'm a decade past caring about these issues. However the things you say could be very hurtful to someone who is in the thick of it. Try showing some compassion. Just because you can speak up doesn't mean you should. The thread is asking women for their experiences of returning after mat leave. Try piping down for once.
Montagueh
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:34
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Good flouncing skills, Darce...
stardust
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:35
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Unlike most previous research which measured women’s employment at a particular time, for example when their child was a year old, our study captured maternal employment throughout their child’s first five years and the effect this had on the child’s development.

We found that a mother’s employment history doesn’t have a positive or negative impact (see page 22) on a child’s reasoning ability or vocabulary at five years old. The reason for this is that children’s cognitive and language skills are shaped by individual traits and environmental conditions that can change many times throughout childhood. Therefore, development and well-being at a certain age are the result of children’s cumulative experiences over their first few years, not simply a result of a single snapshot moment."


From here: http://theconversation.com/being-a-working-mother-is-not-bad-for-your-children-784 39
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:40
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I’m a strong believer in attachment theory. As I say above. Countries like Scandinavia and Germany support parent chil-rearing so it’s hardly a concept that’s outrageous.

Having ad hominem attacks as to my view by two women with messy private lives, mental illness and a lot else besides which they frequently air on here really doesn’t make me feel any worse about supporting the view that a child needs a parent around years 0-4.

What you really should be angry about is the way this country’s policies fails to support parents being able to take time out to be parents.
Nexis
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:42
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How wonderful it is on a thread about returning from mat leave that we have a man, who will never go through pregnancy or experience that process, telling us what we should be doing. What would we do without such men, ladies?
stardust
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:44
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by two women with messy private lives, mental illness and a lot else besides

Wow. The implication being that because of these things (if they are true and I am not saying they are) they can't and shouldn't take umbrage at your view of things and you are, somehow, on a pedestal above?

Ooooh boy.
Misshoolie
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:46
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Dude your first contribution to this thread was to call stents who work sociopaths.

My private life is the opposite of messy and I haven't made any personal attacks on you.

What I do think is that the maxim "whereof one knows not, one should be silent" applies
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:47
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*pulls up a seat*

*opens popcorn*
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:47
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Women spend plenty of time telling men what to do re men’s issues on here.

I’m giving an opinion though admittedly I’ve moved the conversation on to parental care: I couldn’t care less when women go back to work as long as someone is about for the child. Men need to take more time off. This would also help women get jobs as the employer wouldn’t know who of a couple would take time out. This is still secret prejudice that occurs: Candidate female 34 years old no career break - oh she’s going to sprog... hummm.. I have seen that thought register in employer’s thought processes (luckily not where I work which is super female).
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:49
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Gabriel has told us AN SECRET
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:49
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Stardust I’m more than happy for people to disagree and have a debate

But when some angst riddled twit with an apparently chaotic life starts commenting on my sexuality and me as a person rather than debating the point I’m afraid it’s time to say STFU.
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:51
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Hoolie your life sounds pretty messy given what you’ve posted over the years quite honestly. Get some dignity.
Rhamnousia
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:51
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my life is completely staid tbh

ISIS would be fine with it
stardust
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:52
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Women spend plenty of time telling men what to do re men’s issues on here.

But the OP here is about returning to work after mat leave and of other fette's experience of that. You have not given birth (you are a parent and paternity leave here is a separate issue). So, Darce, please. Don't be unkind or lash out simply because you have been called out here. No one has attacked your life, but they have attacked the way you have been judgmental (on a topic that wasn't even raised in the first place) and you have got extremely personal and rude about people you don't even know.

I am sure if the OP wanted some advice on child care issues, you would be welcome to give your opinions. You haven't, however, returned to work still lactating, feeling exhausted due to having given birth or with your vag still throbbing from an episiotomy.

xx
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:52
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Misshoolie
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:53
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I'm divorced and I've been in a happy relationship for over two years.

It may sound messy to you, but it's actually completely normal and a lot less messy than dozens of men on this board who never get any stick at all.

You sound unhinged. You blundered into this thread calling people names and look like a tit.
Parrothead
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:53
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I’m sure we should all respect Darces theories on child raising, predicated as they are on long held societal norms...
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:55
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I’m not attacking anyone and I am sorry if my posts were off point .. conversations flow irl so should they on her... I’m not giving advice on the rights and wrongs coming back to work with a bleeding front bottom Etc etc. As is v clear from above.
CurrantAccount
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:55
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Good to know rof is still rof...

I'm on the books for full time with a suck it and see attitude.

I'm literally interviewing this afternoon for a new role - I will either be promoted or demoted as my old position is defunct.

I am really torn which role is best for me and for the fam.

Nob spent last night in a and e with me and nev as had some mad temperature - which is what I was hoping to avoid with pt nursery at 9 months and boob til 1 - but it is what it is.

We've done 1 week of 3 days at nursery and Nev and I at home with Nob a day and after yesterday (car broken into, vomit everywhere and a and e trip all night) we've upped him to 4 days per week and I'll either make flexible working work or drop to 4 days myself.

I have to say since becoming preg / mother / returning to work (there are no 'working dads' only 'working mums' ??!!) I'm seeing a world of trad role annoyance / sexism that I was utterly unaware of b4 baby
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:56
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Darce.

Darce mate.

Want a hanky for the spunk in your face?
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:56
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John Bawlby Gannicus .... are you suggesting a gay person can’t be a good parent? Can a Jew be a good British citizen? Shall I ask you that back?
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:57
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I have to say since becoming preg / mother / returning to work (there are no 'working dads' only 'working mums' ??!!) I'm seeing a world of trad role annoyance / sexism that I was utterly unaware of b4 baby

I'm a "working dad"

*waves*

Misshoolie
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:57
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I have to say since becoming preg / mother / returning to work (there are no 'working dads' only 'working mums' ??!!) I'm seeing a world of trad role annoyance / sexism that I was utterly unaware of b4 baby

WORD
Jethro Oldenoughtoknowbetter
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:02
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Ladies. He gets his servants to clean and iron his bed linen twice a week. This is not normal behaviour.
CurrantAccount
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:03
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Does anyone call you 'working Dad' BB ? Cos I'm already boooorrrrreeeed of being referred to as a 'working mum' - what was I before ? an employee ? I'll stick to that plz.
Parrothead
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:06
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I see you got the point Darce. You are adopting a position based on long held societal norms and using that to denounce people who do things differently. Well as you see, that argument works in many ways. Doesn’t it?

So try stop being a bigoted twat eh?
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:07
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Given I arrange all of my working hours around being able to drop my two children off, pick them up and participate in their nursery and primary education, and have given these as the reasons why I need flexibility at work, yes they do call me a "working dad" CC. Is there any need to be sceptical about that, given you have no idea what my arrangements are because you haven't asked yet?
The Wizard of Oz
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:07
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OB, on the basis that all people are different, you may well be one of the people who works out how they will handle returning to work when they actually go back to work.

What you should expect with nob starting day care is he will, for a time, catch every illness going. And he'll pass most of it on to you too.

Good luck.
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:10
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I’m not bigoted - the rights of the child come first when you become a parent. If you can’t do it properly do don’t it. There are enough unloved babies in this country. And callous selfish adults who care only about themselves and £.
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:12
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I am a strong believer in heterosexuality for all parents Darce. It's how it's been for centuries and it works best. I'm not being bigoted - the rights of the child come first. There are enough fvcked up babies and children out there without adding to them.

OK?
Misshoolie
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:12
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You're really running with this angle huh

You could probably monetise this. Katie Hopkins did
Rhamnousia
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:12
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no one who can't afford to not work for 4 years should have children?
The Wizard of Oz
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:15
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"If you can't do it properly* don't do it."

* Darce's definition of properly is the only one applicable here. Just ask him.
stardust
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:24
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Darce, I do absolutely get how idealistic you are and you obviously love your children fiercely, and that's really ace, but I think life isn't ideal for everyone. Biology doesn't halt because circumstances aren't ideal. Yes, it would be lovely if all children were raised in a secure, loving environment but that's not going to happen any time soon. And life is expensive these days and the average income in this country is about £24k. Staying at home for four years is a huge luxury but also kids probably benefit from a bit of socialising with other kids, anyway.

Incidentally, I know Miss H and I know the Hooligans, and have spent lots of time with them. All very balanced and lovely individuals. The Hooligans are hysterically funny, bright and also fiercely loved. I am not in the least bit worried about them in this world and Hooligan 2 will probably be running the country in thirty years! Ha.

Anyway, the mud slinging is less than ideal on a Friday. OB, it sounds like the decision has to be a very personal one. I am sure you'll work it out.
Parrothead
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:26
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There are none so blind as will not see
CurrantAccount
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:39
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I think I just attract the mud Dusty ! - this thread was not supposed to be controversial in anyway - all parenting stuff seems to be like this tho in my 1 year of it.

right. i better go and unload the washing machine, get dressed and get to the office for the interview.
Bobbie-Fleckmann
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:40
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**** me, who is BB? sane, stable and loving same sex parents are going to be far better parents than fucked up disinterested incapable different sex parents. Respective genders don't make a jot of difffernce in parenting skills and it's **** all to do with how logn it's been done for. Parents have been fucking up their kids for millennia, and gender rarely has a thing to do with it.

OP asked about returnign to work. Nex, with respect the vast majority of parents go back to work long after the stitches have dissolved and the physical effects have (largely) worn off. You seem to be suggesting that parents who adopt or use a surrogate (regardless of gender) are somehow less entitled to be a part of the discussion and I think that's ludicrous. I know you had a difficult birth,but adopters / users of surrogates have an equally valid experience in parenting and returning to work. Darce was having a pop at those who give birth but don't do any parenting. I think we're talkign here about parenting and work, not birthing and work.

TO answer the original question and not get distracted by who has greater dibbs over status as a parent, it's a mistake not to at least try and get back to where you were if you enjoyed your career before you had children. I went back to a promotion in a pretty much all-male office where nobody at my level had (in my memory of a decade in the organisation) had gone on mat leave, so there was vested interest in kicking arse. It was great. Promoted on return shortly after 2nd mat leave too. The essential part is hwoever excellent childcare and for us, nursery could never have fulfilled that role - not only the germs / sickness that you're experiencing and the lack of cover when that happens, but the rigid and inflexible timings that do not suit any jobs with long hours.
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:41
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**** me, who is BB?

Would you like me to fiddle with your sarcasm detector?
Misshoolie
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:42
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Bobbie I think B.B. was doing a reducto ad absurdum on darce's view. I doubt he really thinks it
Bobbie-Fleckmann
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:43
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o OP is OB. So that adds a question - what level of dropping off / picking up from a nursery are you able to share? it is inevitably harder when you're both doing long hours (but that doesn't mean you shodln't do it).
It does mean you have to prioritise better and you will need to give up some of those lovely fluffy things that you like doing for a while at least, because your focus when you're not working will need to be on your child, and that's added to when you're using a nursery because nobody is washing the multiple outfit changes for your baby and preparing his bag for the day and so on. Can you ramp up the domestic help on that side so you're not chained to the laundry when you're not working?
Bobbie-Fleckmann
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:46
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o good yes pls. was on conf call and not payign great attention to the squabble but to teh question
torontochicken
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:48
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I went back at 5.5 months and felt like I'd become a normal human being again the second I got back to the office. It was such a relief - id been agonising about in it the run up. I would definitely try the work thing - you can always dial it down if you're not liking it/it's not working for you or your baby.

On the flip side, chicklet didn't take a bottle and so he waited for me to get home and then tanked up with breastmilk overnight - every night. I went through exhausted at about 6.5 months and out the other side. I had to change my schedule at work so I didn't start before 10am - so the nanny arrived at 730am and I had an hour power nap before heading into the office. I would have died without that. He's just over a year now and I'm tapering off breastfeeeding and, separately, he's finally starting to (sporadically) sleep through and it's made the world of difference.

Darce - it might be different if neither of you gave birth, but I broadly follow attachment parenting and can assure you my child is securely attached to me despite being back at work. There are a lot of hours in the day apart from work hours, and lots of ways of maintaining a career. The fact you couldn't do it shouldn't lead you to condemn others who have managed to sort it out properly.
Misshoolie
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:51
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I have no idea what attachment parenting is tbh. If it involves being physically attached to your baby at all times then tbh this was not so much a practice I adopted as one he forced upon me as he screamed blue murder otherwise.
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:55
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Could we have a separate thread for those with nannies?
Nexis
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:05
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Bobbie, I think you are conflating two different issues. One is about child-rearing and working parents in general. That's something where the views of fathers, gay parents, adopters, etc are all equally valid as those of mothers. And then there's the return of mothers after mat leave. My circumstances were unusual but many women are still struggling physically and mentally at that point, and doing things like juggling expressing/bfing and working that the people I referred to in the first group will never have to deal with. I thought this thread was about the latter seeing as the title is "returning to work after mat leave".
Captain Mal
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:05
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I have no idea what attachment parenting is tbh.

Its a somewhat bonkers theory that, ironically enough in the context, is massively focused on the need for the baby to spend massive amounts of time constantly with its mother. Not "a parent", quite specifically the mother.

Which, well, you know...
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:11
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I thought this thread was about the latter seeing as the title is "returning to work after mat leave".

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS
Captain Mal
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:11
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And FWIW:

1. All of the neediest most insecure children I know from my daughter's peers / our friends had a full time stay at home parent.

2. We're in a proper hybrid between the two extremes state so I can categorically declare that all your children are completely fvcked up for life because you haven't done exactly what we've done.
torontochicken
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:13
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There are lots of flavours of aattacwnt parenting but the broad thrust of it is that you are responsive to your child’s needs and wants (rather than Gina-ing them or whatever) and you give them lots of physical contact. Which, as hoolie has astutely observed, lots of parents end up doing as that’s what their child demands. Which is pretty much what attachment parenting is about anyway.

And not sure why a separate thread is required for those with nannies. It’s just another form of childcare that makes it easier for the parents and to some extent the child who can stay in their home environment. Not sure it changes any discussion fundamentally.
Bobbie-Fleckmann
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:14
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you know that (obv not darce) many adopters / surrogate users breastfeed? and adopters of older kids have frequently got far more to deal with than expressing so i'm not sure i am - certainly not intending to. and OP here has a year old child so presumably physical birth issues are over. I feel quite strongly that those mental issues / physical tiredness are not exclusive to ppl who actually give birth. I know a good number of adopters / surrogate users and it's no easier/less complicated for them after the giving birth
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:16
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In the same way the proposition that anyone who can't afford to take 4 years off unpaid shouldn't have children was rightly ridiculed, the lot of parents who do childcare themselves rather than have a full-time nanny should perhaps not be too closely intertwined.
Used Psychology
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:20
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#TeamMal4TW
torontochicken
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:21
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Perhaps B.B., but in the context of an OP that asked about going back to work full time it seems odd to discount those who have nannies.

Ps I do lots of childcare myself even though I have a nanny. Hopey helpy!
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:22
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Perhaps they are in the same league, but you have to wonder why those who pay upwards of £20k a year to have a nanny do that, unless it makes things a lot fvcking easier.
Bobbie-Fleckmann
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:25
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the difference in cost v making things a lot fucking easier v being able to return to work in a professional and undisrupted manner is valid partlicularly in the context of a query from someone in a household where two professional salaries are earned.

what do you do for childcare bb?
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:26
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2 part time / flexibly working parents, nursery and school. No grandparents or other family support.
Cru de Ville
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:29
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Darcy wins the prize (yet again) for most bare faced hypocrite on RoF.

Take a bow, sir, your unrelenting commitment to the pursuit of this award is impressive.
Bobbie-Fleckmann
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:30
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christ i seem to need to actually read this thread as missed 4 years / outragesou hipocracy
CurrantAccount
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:30
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We are sharing pick up and drop off Bobs - but broadly Nev will do drop off and I will do pick up as that fits better for us - I'm better at getting in and on with it early and he prefers working later.

I've got flexible working and have had for 11 years where as Nev's environment is much more office focussed.

My new role (if I get it) will see me reporting into the US and working much more with the US / Asia Pac so I will have far less ties to a trad 9-5, but my work volume will also go up hugely as well as re-onboarding myself and trying to get a pipeline in place to meet the billing requirements of the much larger role and cultural changes of working in a larger more bureaucratic (sp) environment.

The fluffy stuff has long gone I saw my maternity year as an opportunity to grasp - time. And so as well as look after Nob, we bought a new house and it underwent extensive renovations to become our certainly middle-term home - it's now 3 bedrooms and big and in a lovely area and when we are ready we will do the basement extension and we are slowly slowly starting to think unless I really do get itchy feet this could perhaps be us done (I dont really trust myself in this regard tho...)

Domestic help - the cleaner will do our place weekly (she's broken her arm at the moment) and will do the ironing as well. Can't see laundry being something she does - really my big need is floors and deeper stuff which will set for her weekly.

Nob was going to be in nursery for 3 days with us doing a day each with him at home, but yesterday was such a disaster he's now gone up to 4 days a week and we will figure out the 5th day - i will work flexibly, or drop a day or we will take annual leave between us on friday's to focus on him for the day.

The nursery is amazing - it's a really special place. Had a year long wait list which I was lucky enough to deal with early to get him in there and he loves the other kids / his carers so I have great confidence in them and his enjoyment / safety there.

I've already nearly jacked work in about 100 times this week and am really suffering a bit of a confidence crisis about how on earth I am actually going to juggle anything and everything and do a half decent job of any of the roles I now have to and want to fulfil well.
Bobbie-Fleckmann
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:38
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OB, I mean this most sincerely - do not think you can work from home wtih a small child there. Especially not if you're trying to step into a more bureaucratic / bigger role. It doesn't work. Nor does each of you using near as dammit your entire annual leave allowance to take fridays off - you will have no family time. Local child minder for that day? also very much worth your while finding someone now who will stop in when the inevitable illnesses happen. Got any grandparents anywhere? Oh - lots of nannies are 4 day / week and fridays off - you may want to find out who is free on short notice for any fridays for eg. It sounsd as if your crisis of confidence may be because you haven't really had a maternity leave if you've been doing a renovation project. Have you actually got yourself back into a professional mindset or are you over loaded on plug sockets and grout?
torontochicken
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:39
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BB, well of course a nanny makes things fvcking easier. Wtf else would you pay for one? Am mystified as to why you think it’s not relevant in the context of a thread about 2 working parents. Good on you for using nursery & grandparents instead - don’t think that means you really do much more childcare than someone with a nanny (and I’d we had willing/able grandparents nearby we’d be rinsing them for childcare) but if the holy glow of smugness helps you polish your halo in the morning then good for you.

OB - get a proper plan in place for the 5tj day of childcare. This fly by the seat of your pants stuff doesn’t work. And (I’m sure you know this) you can’t work and look after a 1 year old at the same time - no way. If you’re struggling with pick up/drop offs can you get a mother’s help to fill the gaps? Remember in a few short years they’ll be at school for a large chunk of the time and it’d be a shame to jack in a career that you like if you can possibly avoid it.

And don’t worry about juggling - just bluster through. Fake it til you make it!
Bobbie-Fleckmann
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:40
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(can the cleaner come twice a week and take care of changing beds and washing sheets at least? send nev's shirts out? is she someone who could potentially end up helping on childcare on short notice? ours is bloody brilliant and does which can be a godsend esp since she has a car so can do school run)
torontochicken
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:40
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Heh - x post w Bobbie. Get proper childcare for day 5!
rogermellie
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:43
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sounds like every other working woman OB, you will be fine and so will NOB
good luck x
Bobbie-Fleckmann
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:44
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heh.
You *know* that the meeting with people who are in the country for one day and which you must be present *will* be on a Friday. The same Friday Nev is closing some massive deal and also has to be in the office. It will happen. And quite possibly baby will have some unsightly eye infection or temperature that day too.
CurrantAccount
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:49
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BF / TC - thank you - lots of food for thought that I hadn't really got my head around yet in anyway shape or form.

Cleaner loves Nob and has offered re childcare and would be great at a push. She's in South London and travels up tho, but is an option which I will bring up with Nev.

No family who could support looking after Nob.

Will start investigating what to do re 5th day. I really want to see if I could manage it tho and do compressed hours before reducing my job (and salary) and less time with Nob - my old role certainly left me with time to do more than work.

If I get the bigger role, I think they would be open minded (as would my lesser role) to reducing my days if needed.

We found out very sharply that 3 days per week of childcare and working wasn't going to succeed yesterday so I guess we are going to have to move quickly to put things in place as we find out the realities of it all now.

Correct Bobs - I'm completely spent trying to get the house done before returning to work, saved only by the fact that no one knows what my job is yet so no one is expecting me to do it yet until they know, so the entire week has been taken with IT etc to re-onboard myself.
torontochicken
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:51
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But of course Bobbie. This is how it works!

OB I would be tempted to get a nanny/housekeeper for the 5th day. Get a nice Latin or Filipino and they’ll shower nob with affection and get on with the laundry and ironing whilst he is sleeping too. (Why wouldn’t you prioritise outsourcing laundry over family time? I genuinely don’t understand why any dual career couple who were arming good loneh would do their own laundry.)
CurrantAccount
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:52
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lol - already happened today Bobs ! Nev has to be in the office to close, I've the interview (which I'm now doing at home in pjs rather than the office - US leadership will have some benefits) and we were in a and e until 2am last night with Nob.... who got an extra day today in nursery after a bit of begging before his new 4 day week next week....
12
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:53
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I don't really see why having a nanny is that big a deal for people, and why the outrage comes.

If the parents are both working, it's either family, nanny or a nursery who deal with child in the meantime. One can argue the toss about which is best, but I'd have thought that having a parent-esque figure who looks after the child, whether granny or nanny, is certainly nothing to be demonised.

So it becomes a money thing, i.e. people don't understand how other's can afford (or are jealous of the financial means to do so) a nanny. I would imagine in London it's not significantly[/I] more expensive than a nursery? Esp if 2+ kids.

Amongst my group of mates, all options are covered (stay at home mums, dads, grandparents, nurseries and nannies). All seem to do what works best for them, all find having kids hard but great. All seem happy with their choices and with perfectly normal kids.

This 'stay at home for 4 years or don't bother' seems every bit as bigoted and lazy an attack as those which almost every minority group would scream OUTRAGE[/B] at.
12
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:55
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Love a good boldfail.
Balthazar Bratt
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:02
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Lol @ "parent-esque"
Bobbie-Fleckmann
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:05
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TC is correct on laundry and she can run her style of parenting alongside full time work because when she's there she's present. Laundry is an utter waste of yoru time, as is goign to the supermarket - let someone else pick your avocados for a few years as you're better off spending that time with your child doing something fun. And whatever you persuade yourself, driving to a supermarket, parking, getting a trolley, lining up etc is not fun.
Testarossa
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:18
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I had thought the reasonable interpretation of attachment theory was that a child, as far as is possible, should be provided with consistency and care so that it has the best opportunity to attach to and interact with persons. A parent (whether biological or otherwise) will always be the primary provider of care as they are the person the child sees in the middle of the night when they are upset, the person who attends important events with them, the person who will kiss them at night etc etc.

Most parents do the best they can: both for themselves and for their children. Moreover, we should be supporting each other in that quest rather than judging. One size does not fit all when it comes for parenting because every kid is different, just as every parent is different, and combining the two (three) adds a yet further complication. Everyone compromises on something at some point, especially in the early years.

What Bobbie and TC have said re the 5th day... and as an ideal position, try to get more cover than you need lined up in case of emergencies/illness/unexpected calls etc. it is financially crippling... but should get easier as they get older.
Captain Mal
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:34
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I had thought the reasonable interpretation of attachment theory was that a child, as far as is possible, should be provided with consistency and care so that it has the best opportunity to attach to and interact with persons.

How can you have a reasonable interpretation of a bat sh1t mental theory that has no empirical evidence to back it up? Its like suggesting that a reasonable interpretation of flat earth theory is that the earth is actually shaped more like a smartie.

Non-batsh1t mental interpretations of attachment theory are mostly just about telling yourself you're superior to your friends (/ strangers on t'interweb) because you think you spend more time with your kids than they do.
CurrantAccount
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:45
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I don't really get the point of competitive parenting - but I see it all the time even at this stage, which is a real shame.

Was quite collaborative and nice up until 6m then all a bit mental from there on out.
CurrantAccount
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:47
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Thanks test / BF - have suggested to Nev that we put together an xls of household tasks and assign accordingly to try and get some clarity (even if it's just more appreciation of what I do!!!!) and draft in 3rd party support where appropriate.

Given we've just upped the nursery costs by another day a week and the cleaner is now weekly I've got the books to balance as well...
Tam
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:49
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OB I returned F/T after 4 months with T1. It’s hard at first but it does all fit in to place (mostly) after a while.

I don’t agree with Gabriel. My children have always had F/T childcare and they are loving, happy, well-balanced, polite, healthy and hard-working. I am so affected by my own childhood that I am very focused on making sure my children don’t suffer the way I did. A SAHP is not essential to achieving that.
Parsnip
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:50
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i am a working dad

the women in the same position as me at work get a year off paid.

i got 2 weeks

If society accepted that dads should be entitled to the same rights as women in this regard then it would be a start. I appreciate that part of mat leave is to allow the body to recover - but that's a couple of weeks no more for most people. It doesn't excuse the woeful way in which men are marginalised in all of this.
Tam
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:51
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and what testa said

Ps test, where have you been?!
Captain Mal
Posted - 12 January 2018 14:15
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i am a working dad

the women in the same position as me at work get a year off paid.

i got 2 weeks


The law has moved on on the statutory basis.

On the employer basis - anyone know when Ali v Capita comes out / if it has already?
Testarossa
Posted - 12 January 2018 14:16
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Hey, been busy with life and work. also, didn't like some creepy aspects of rof.
How are you doing?
Testarossa
Posted - 12 January 2018 14:22
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"If society accepted that dads should be entitled to the same rights as women in this regard then it would be a start. I appreciate that part of mat leave is to allow the body to recover - but that's a couple of weeks no more for most people."

Everything being equal, it takes 6 months for a body to fully recover to what it was before pregnancy (ie, restore calcium levels etc). it takes longer if you're having to recover when also dealing with health issues for you or baby, especially with reduced sleep.

six weeks is bare minimum to stop bleeding in some instances. it is demoralising emotionally, and literally physically draining. sufficient mat leave is important.

that is not to say that paternity leave isn't. PL is there so that the father can support mum but also to allow time to bond with baby.
Parsnip
Posted - 12 January 2018 15:11
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Testa - i hear you but

1) calcium levels could be increased regardless of environment
2) sleep loss - errm - that implies the woman is looking after the baby at night.

my point is that society makes this an issue for women because it does not deign to treat men with any kind of equality - until it accepts that a man is largely capable of bringing up a child from day one (body issues noted) then it will compound the issues that are experienced by women

Your point about the father supporting the mum is my point. It shoudlnt be. I don't want to my employer to recognise my desire to "support my wife in being a mum"/. I want my employer to accept that i have the right to bring up my kids on an equal footing to their mother. i would need more sleep if that was the case.
Bobbie-Fleckmann
Posted - 12 January 2018 15:28
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OB- a question from me - am I right in thinking that you and nev aren't married? If that's the case do not ffs compromise your earnings potential any more than you have. I know you are a good feminist but I think you can be a good feminist at the same time as acknowledging that you shouldn't be the only e left financially fucked as a result of giving birth to his child.
MrWhemmick
Posted - 12 January 2018 19:06
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I can’t understand how any mother/father can leave their 3 month old child in the hands of strangers for the majority of the day.

I agree with the OP - what is the point of having children if you foist them off like this?

I am equallyconcerned about the folk that send their kids off to boarding school at 7 and then delegate their entire upbringing...
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 12 January 2018 19:19
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Each to their own - every family will have a different set of circumstances.

Darce’s 4 years of being primarily cared for by one parent needs a bit of unpacking, shall we say.. our daughter just started nursery at 10 months. It’s totally clear to me that she needs (and really enjoys) the stimulation of meeting and being around different adults and other nippers - in fact ever since about 6 months she’s been super gregarious and has actually got a bit cranky if she didn’t get taken out so she could grin at strangers, even if we fully entertained her in the house all day. Hard to conclude that she’d be better off being clutched to mummy's bosom for another three years in that context.
Lydia
Posted - 12 January 2018 19:50
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I was away for 2 weeks or so in total so it was not hard to go back full time. The hardest thing was needing to express breastmilk every few hours which is nothing like as nice as directly breastfeeding a cute little baby.
Jethro Oldenoughtoknowbetter
Posted - 12 January 2018 22:50
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We know you were away for only 2 weeks Lydia. You've told us this before.
Betty
Posted - 12 January 2018 23:00
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I went back 3 days a week and loved feeling like I had my life back. Hated it when I upped from 3 days to 4 but after a few months came to prefer it as I’m far less likely to have to work on my day off.

Massive heh at whoever said most women are physically recovered from giving after a couple of weeks. I take it you’re not a doctor.
meeester wang
Posted - 13 January 2018 10:53
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For what it’s worth, we’ve done everything from nanny/childminder/playgroup/nursery/extreme outdoor nursery with the mrs working or working from home (which i realise is also working) at various stages. Makes absolutely fck all difference to the kids tbh.

(Awaits accusation of mansplaining...)
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 13 January 2018 10:56
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I’m all in favour of playgroups and so on. Ours went to a Montessori three mornings a week.

I just think the primary carer to whom the child attaches should be a parent who is with them. Not some paid stranger / strangers
Gabriel Oak
Posted - 13 January 2018 11:05
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And for the avoidance of doubt attachment theory is not some bat sh1t theory - it is a well-documented and long thought out body of psychological study that tries to determine how primate relationships form. What we also know is that psychopaths and teen criminality can result from a failure to make solid attachments in early stages and many children who do suffer abuse or neglect in those first four years benefit from intense therapy driven support to try to develop new, later attachments.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory. Brief summary
EasternGrit
Posted - 13 January 2018 22:32
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I went back ft when little grit 1 was 10 months. I went back to a new and stressful job - I made clear that I had to leave the office at 5.30 and I would be doing the required long hours by picking it all up again after bedtime. It was ok because they wanted me quite badly so I had the chance to be clear about how I could take it on. I was pregnant by the time LG 1 was 15 months old. The last few weeks of working and pregnancy was hard. After LG 2 I went back 3 days a week for about a year and that was lovely. Stressful sometimes in that I was doing a 4 day week minimum but loved my two days at home
Misshoolie
Posted - 13 January 2018 23:39
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Cat on a hot tin ceiling
Posted - 14 January 2018 07:18
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heh @ this.Proper Mumsnet.

A bit of mansplaining from me for what it's worth...

1. Do what works for you and the other parent.

2. Subject to No 1 above (there are some freaks out there who seem to enjoy ironing, you might be one, who knows) pay for as much help as you can afford in terms of domestic chores (just cos it preserves your sanity and reduces the scope for rows with your other half).

3. Tell anyone who says you are doing it wrong to fvck off and mind their business.

4., As an exention of 1 and indeed 3 do follow your instincts. If it feels wrong it probably is but do be prepared to live with the consequences of decisions you make and be realistic about those consequences.

5. Provided your child is warm and fed and loved they will almost certainly be fine. Your sanity and future health and prospects are far more at risk than theirs in the early years.


Gabriel Oak
Posted - 14 January 2018 20:19
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Hoolie I honestly think someone around -not full time- at home does make for a nicer homelife but we’ve all been sold a bloody lie. Now it seems to require two salaries mostly to live comfortably in this wretched country and “a job” is sold to us as self-empowerment. I’m not sure it means eternal happiness - lots of jobs are sh1t and boring
Incakenito
Posted - 14 January 2018 22:50
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I went back three days and it was such a nightmare (as my cases didn't decrease proportionally) that I upped it to four within weeks. I was still working on the day I was meant to have off most weeks as it wasn't worth filling someone else in on my cases just for one day but a slightly bitter pill to swallow when you have cut your salary and spend a day feeling stressed as calls and emails come in which expect replies that day.

Felt weird leaving on time for first few weeks but then just went with it : I had to pick my daughter up from childcare so I did leave on time unless really under it at work.

Not sure what the beef is with nannies. Getting a nanny for us was the same cost as nursery in the long run as we would never have made it back in time for pick up (6pm) without being fined so would need to pay for wraparound care. The nanny we found has been absolutely amazing and I loved getting pictures all through the day of what my little one was up to. Would definitely recommend you sorting out that one other day a week or just doing four days provided you can properly switch off.

Lydia
Posted - 15 January 2018 17:57
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I don't disagree that babies attach to their parents but I don't agree the parent has to be there 24/7 for that to occur. Babies like certainty, routines, similarity no change. Also how is someone who looks after them from 2 weeks like our first daily nanny who stayed 10 years "a stranger". That kind of emotive language is not particularly helpful. I agree that if a baby is left to lie in a orphanage and no one meets its needs when it cries it will not attach to anyone and will learn that its needs are never met and be damaged by that but that is not what most or any of the working parents on RoF do.

Our daily nanny was cheaper than full time nursery for 3 children under 4 which we had for a while. I am scanning selected photographs from albums 1 - 85. I have just been doing a few from about 86/87. You can see from that album the involvement in our lives of their nanny and her husband (who took a lot of lovely photos - much better than mine on my camera) and even their parents were involved too. I see that as a massive gain for the children - all those extra people who loved to be with them, not some kind of stolen loss.
CurrantAccount
Posted - 16 January 2018 10:28
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ou can see from that album the involvement in our lives of their nanny and her husband (who took a lot of lovely photos - much better than mine on my camera) and even their parents were involved too. I see that as a massive gain for the children - all those extra people who loved to be with them, not some kind of stolen loss.

^^

This is a sweet paragraph and how I feel about Nob's carers at the nursery.

Work getting easier as get into the swing of it a bit more, but still don't know what job is to get into the swing of.
WhatHaveIDoneNow!
Posted - 16 January 2018 20:15
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I've just returned to work full time after 6 months maternity leave. It's hard leaving her adorable little face in the morning but once I'm at work I'm fine. Although I do facetime with her 2 or 3 times a day

However I'm lucky enough to have a husband who didn't like his job and as we can manage on my salary for a while (just!) he's being stay at home dad for a while. I suspect I'd be a nervous wreck if she was in daycare, especially as the 'good' places nearby have been booked up for about 5 years (no, I have no idea how either 'We're planning to be pregnant with Tarquin 3 years after we conceive his brother Baldrick which will be in two years' time so please put them both down on the list now?!).
Used Psychology
Posted - 16 January 2018 20:55
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I agree with what CC’s maid typed out at 7:18.