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Farage calls for second EU referendum
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SumoKing
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:25
Suddenly realised that leaving the EU will cost jobs?

specifically, his job?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/01/11/nigel-farage-suggests-uk-may-need-se cond-brexit-referendum-settle/
Cyprian
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:29
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Brilliant. Let's do it.
Used Psychology
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:30
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Heh.

Soon to be redundant, divorced man in mid-50s suddenly discovers nostalgia for what made him well known shocka?
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:30
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For the first time ever I completely agree with him - once the brexit deal is known have a referendum on taking that or staying. If Leavers win, I for one will shut up on the subject and I imagine that every one else will too. If it is not done this country will remain divided for a generation.
Queenie E
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:34
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Any second referendum would be an even higher result for leave. If there was evidence of manipulation in the first one then you ain’t seen nothing yet
Used Psychology
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:37
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Heh.

The demographics are changing. Any second referendum would still be close.
Perfidious Porpoise
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:38
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Wouldn't the EU have to agree to let us change our minds (if we do)?
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:39
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Would be fascinating to see which side May comes down on...
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:39
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Wouldn't the EU have to agree to let us change our minds (if we do)?

They would like a shot, it has been hinted at many times.
BREXIT!!
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:46
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I DON'T BELIEVE IT!

FAKE NEWS!!
SumoKing
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:47
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makes you wonder what Barnier said to him
BREXIT!!
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:48
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QUICK! SOMEBODY NEEDS TO TELL NIGEL FARAGE THAT HIS TWITTER ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED!!

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/951400764697653248
Abbeywell/NSA
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:48
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Doesn't he have a good pension for being an ex MEP to look forward to post Brexit
Parrothead
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:51
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MEP pensions are very comfortable let’s say.
Used Psychology
Posted - 11 January 2018 12:07
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It could be Barnier said he won;t be getting a pension after all, or will have to rely on the UK government for it.

THAT's what has changed his mind...
Coracle Lolling
Posted - 11 January 2018 12:10
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Any second referendum would be an even higher result for leave.

Depends entirely whether pre or post deal.

At the moment Leave (trailing slightly in the polls, but still within the margin of error) are still benefiting from their having and eating cake position.

There is no one Leave model. Each different option has different disadvantages that will alienate different Leave voters. No one Leave option would command a majority.

Until a deal is concluded they can continue to promise anything to anybody, whilst simultaneously preaching contradictory positions.

Make them choose a solution and their slim majority evaporates.
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 12:11
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I thought Farage had a new lucrative career giving talks to quasi-fascists?
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 12:11
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No point at all in having a pre-deal referendum.
GMT
Posted - 11 January 2018 12:14
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Yes, this should definitely happen, but agreed only once the terms of the proposed deal (which Parliament will get to vote on anyhow) are known.
Siegfreid
Posted - 11 January 2018 14:20
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It might be an idea to let the voters see what life looks like outside of the EU and whether they really want to compete with low wage, low regulation economies.

It'll be hard to argue that freedom from the EU superstate/faceless unelected undemocratic bureaucrats is worth it, if the victory is rhetorical, objective success a chimera and the people in the long queue for free soup have full time jobs.
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 14:45
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Either that or they will turn to socialism, which will be far easier to introduce outside the EU....
pancake humper
Posted - 11 January 2018 14:47
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Queenie E
Posted - 11 January 2018 14:48
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Aron Banks now whining too

The lizard overlords must be getting twitchy
Old Man Of Hoy
Posted - 11 January 2018 14:52
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“I met Farage on the way--
He had a mask like Boris--
Very smooth he look'd yet grim;
Seven bloodhounds followed him…”

With apologies to PBS
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:22
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I think energies are probably best used in trying to reach a non-insane settlement for leaving ("Norway but for immigration", with generous regional quotas for foreign labour except in Leave areas) rather than this.

What kind of hellfire do you think Dacre, Murdoch, Leave.UK, RT / Breitbart would cook up if we re-ran the vote this year? Can you IMAGINE? Even calling the rerun would be billed as worse than a thousand treasons, a great place to start for Remain II, not.

Would the government of the day campaign for its official position (leave with no plan!) or stay neutral? I think Farage knows all this and can stir (as usual) with impunity.


Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:27
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Banks and Fadge have just lost their satanic contact with America's fascists, remember (Mr Bannon) and are probably casting around for some regained influence.
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:29
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"Even calling the rerun would be billed as worse than a thousand treasons, a great place to start for Remain II, not."

But this argument would be ludicrous, in a democracy people are allowed to change their minds. If people haven't, fine but if they have why should we stick with a decision made before most relevant info was available?
BREXIT!!
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:41
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"in a democracy people are allowed to change their minds"

THIS MAKES NO SENSE!

PLUCKY BRITS HAVE ALREADY VOTED FOR BREXIT!

AND BREXIT IS WHATEVER BREXIT TURNS OUT TO BE - AFTER ALL, BREXIT MEANS BREXIT - SO PLUCKY BRITS HAVE ALREADY VOTED FOR THE FINAL DEAL!

HOW CAN ANYONE BE SIMULTANEOUSLY FOR AND AGAINST THE FINAL DEAL: IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:48
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1 hour party person - I'm not talking about rationality or what is right, I'm talking about what DEFINITELY WOULD happen in the country we currently live in.

The rightwing propaganda machine would kick into a gear than would make 2016 look like the heyday of Cool Britannia. Teresa May would be unable to resist trying to make hay with the white hot outrage that would go on for months.

People who had nothing to lose in 2016 have now got even less to lose, thanks to another 18 months of capable Conservative rule...

Clegg v Farage. People fvcking love Farage, and just because people are idiots and have a massive boner for shouty cartoon authority figures in red trousers does not make the love any less real or electorally relevant. He is panting for a re-run because it will make him relevant again, and probably wreck the country (again) but even more so.
BREXIT!!
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:50
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"People fvcking love Farage, and just because people are idiots and have a massive boner for shouty cartoon authority figures in red trousers does not make the love any less real or electorally relevant. He is panting for a re-run because it will make him relevant again, and probably wreck the country (again) but even more so."

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SAYING DEFINITIVELY THAT I CAN'T BE WON OVER BY THE PROSPECT OF A SECOND REFERENDUM

"What kind of hellfire do you think Dacre, Murdoch, Leave.UK, RT / Breitbart would cook up if we re-ran the vote this year? Can you IMAGINE? Even calling the rerun would be billed as worse than a thousand treasons, a great place to start for Remain II, not."

I CAN SEE THAT IT POTENTIALLY HAS CERTAIN ATTRACTIONS
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:51
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This is how Hugenberg screwed up Weimar, by making the Young Plan a massive wedge issue and going back, and back, and back to it even after it was revised.
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:58
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Just the thought of it makes me almost quite like the situation we're in now - UKIP marginalised, far right beginning to look on the back foot here and in (some) other countries, a desperate Tory administration groping, humiliatingly, towards a probably not very good but at least semi-rationally reached deal, and owning it with both hands.
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 11 January 2018 17:33
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1. Leave would not win again. You would really have to have had a lobotomy since June 2016 to switch from remain to leave (not discounting that possibility in Jeremy Khunt’s case).

2. I think the EU should offer us two deals: a shyt one and an OK-ish one... but the OK-ish one should be conditional on Nigel Farage agreeing to forfeit his EU pension. Then we’ll see how patriotic he really is, the slimy little shyt.
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 11 January 2018 17:37
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I really don’t understand where people get this idea that leave would win again, let alone by a bigger margin.

Anyone who is enough of a thick, frothing window-licker to care about what the likes of Murdoch and Dacre think already voted leave last time.
Queenie E
Posted - 11 January 2018 18:06
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Stanley Johnsons and Liz Trusses aside, remainers will not have switched to leave. ANd there is scant evidence that there are lots of repentant leavers. Because the Leave online presence is a lot frothier and louder than the remain one. And in the event of a second referendum they would really put a lot of money behind the bots to influence people. And lots of people who didn’t really care either way voted leave because they thought everyone else was would be influenced by this. And the majority of people are sick to death of the whole fucking thing anyway and might refuse to go out and vote again.

It’s all academic anyway as there categorically will not be a second referendum. It’s not like Banks and Fartage have had a sudden change of heart, is it?
Either way, not worth the risk of asking the great British public again.
Queenie E
Posted - 11 January 2018 18:08
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Okay my head is thick with lurgy and I am struggling to get my point across here but there is a lot is depairing material on the fb 48% group. I just don’t think a remain victory would be in the bag
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 11 January 2018 18:48
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I’m convinced of it, Queen E. (And my predictions have been prettt bang on so far.)

I can’t see that anyone would get out and vote leave in a second referendum who didn’t get out and vote leave last time. But I do believe that there are people who didn’t vote remain last time (either because they couldn’t be arsed, were too young, didn’t have British citizenship, or are one of a small number of bregretters) who would vote remain a second time.

I personally know six people who would have gained the right to vote since June 2016 - one soon to be 18 year old and five EU nationals who have taken or are in the process of getting British citizenship. I also know at least one leaver who said she would either vote remain or stay at home given a second chance, because of all the mess this has caused.
The Goose
Posted - 11 January 2018 19:10
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"I’m convinced of it, Queen E. (And my predictions have been prettt bang on so far.)"

LOL.
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 11 January 2018 19:14
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Well, I underestimated Theresa May’s stupidity, that is true. But to be fair, she had a reputation for being a safe pair of hands, which turned out to be complete bollocks.

But as for how people actually vote, I’ve been spot on. I even said it would be 52-48 leave.
Queenie E
Posted - 11 January 2018 19:19
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Yes and for all your anecdotal evidence there are posts on the 48% group of people that would now change to leave. Care to take a punt on what the result would be on a second referendum?

(For the record, I also correctly predicted a leave win ??)
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 19:56
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Suzy - Yeah OK I can see an argument from previously ill motivated young people voting who didn't previously. But I certainly wouldn't want to put money on it, and there's every indication that Corbs would be just as lacklustre in getting his youth vote out for remain as before.

On the basis that absolutely nothing Nigel Farage wants is going to do me any good at all, there's no way I would get behind a second vote.


And I think you're making a mistake about the right wing press. I do not think we've yet seen the extent of influence they could wield if they wanted to, and I don't want to see it, either. Murdoch in the US is basically radio-controlling the president through Fox & Friends. A second vote is just inviting that level of fvckery here (plus a good few million no doubt dropped with Cambridge Analytica who we haven't even begun to deal with, and on and on.)
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 20:02
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Also, what's changed in Leave areas? Are people less resentful than in 2016?

Sure, there have been some press stories about e.g. people in Halifax finding out they'd lose Nissan and some similar stuff around fishermen, but I'd bet those sorts of direct exposures for particular industries are outweighed by people who just feel in their gut that it's right. Not to mention the Home Counties voters who aren't a bit economically disadvantaged but voted Leave because, well, tweed jackets and Empire.

They haven't all started reading the Guardian and the Mirror. There are no charismatic politicians or establishment figures making a plausible case for Remain. So I reckon Leave would get it again.
Siegfreid
Posted - 11 January 2018 20:19
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It's too early to call another referendum. What's interesting is that the Brexiter in chief must realise that Trump won't save the UK and that the longer they leave it, the more likely it is that a second referendum would confound the result of the first.
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 11 January 2018 20:27
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The people posting on Twitter and Facebook aren’t all “real” people, Queen E. Certainly quite a lot of bots out there. Maybe paid trolls as well.

The fact is that the demographics aren’t in favour of leave for a second referendum. Of all the people who will have gained the right to vote since 2016, we know that they are overwhelmingly likely to vote remain. So to keep the percentage split as it is, leave would have to attract more people to their cause. Who would they attract? All the Sun, Mail and Express-reading drongos all voted leave already.

And with the benefit of hindsight and all that has happened since June 2016, what person who didn’t vote leave last time is seriously going to say, “changed my mind, Brexit is going really well”?

People - a significant number of people - would literally have to have got more stupid in the last 18 months.
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 20:34
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People are boundlessly stupid. They think that the troubles going on are necessary - all part of still being IN, when what is needed is to be OUT.
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 11 January 2018 20:38
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Yes but the people dumb enough to think that “what is needed is to be OUT” voted out last time, so they don’t count for the purposes of increasing the number of people who would vote leave - which would be necessary to keep the percentage split the same.
Siegfreid
Posted - 11 January 2018 22:03
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I haven't met any who has changed his mind one way or the other.

Faring says that he is considering supporting a second referendum because his meeting with Barnier convinced him that he would not give the UK a good deal.

Three things: has it taken a meeting with Barnier for him to understand that the EU was never going to give the UK a good deal?

Second: the UK apparently didn't need a good deal from the EU. Why is it different now?

Third: he does not say how a second referendum will change for the better points one and two.

He has jumped the shark. There are some choice comment, "Lead, Nigel, and we, your loyal foot soldiers will follow and fight, nay to die, for the cause. We await your commands." He'd hit the port a bit heavily that old fart.
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 11 January 2018 23:42
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Nobody needs to change their mind, tbh.

Even the day after the referendum when the demographic breakdown started to emerge it seemed likely that even if no one changes their mind, by the time we actually leave the EU there will no longer be majority support for it.

That was before the government spent 18 months failing to organise a piss up in a brewery.
Gropies Arsies
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:03
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Frankly, I am not sure I see the value in a second referendum right now.

My suspicion is that the really serious damage has already started (actually it’s more than a suspicion) and most of it is now largely unstoppable.

A second referendum won’t fix that. We need the country’s problems fixed first, and that includes an improved public awareness of what is actually causing the country’s suffering. A referendum which keeps us in the EU will merely provide another excuse from the intellectually dishonest hypocrites and charlatans on the hard right, like Hannan, Farage, Fox and co. (And indeed their equivalents on the hard left, who fortunately are not in power).

The jokers are doing a fine job at demonstrating their utter inability to rule as well as the appalling reality of their bile-filled (fuelled?) ideology.

Either way, I am confident that the EU and the Eurozone is now well past its existential crises and the crushing inevitability of globalisation means that we will probably rejoin within a decade. I wonder whether we would be better off experiencing the pointlessness of leaving to indelibly ink that memory than merely following the ebbs and flows of populist consensus.

And let’s face it, we are well on the way to consigning the right wing of the Tory Party to the dustbin of history, hoisted by their own petard. I’m not sure I want to lose that fun.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:06
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"I haven't met any who has changed his mind one way or the other."

People have posted on here that they have changed their mind.

Farage was on radio this morning "clarifying" that he didnt want one but he now thought a 2nd referendum was likely as parliament would not accept the shitty deal we are likely to get from the EU.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:07
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My belief is that, save for a few headbangers the government itself is counting on a 2nd referendum, but of course cannot hint at that at the moment as it will incentivise the EU to offer us feck all.
Gropies Arsies
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:07
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Also, if we’re being honest, the EU is a long long way from perfect. While it’s been punishing and unpleasant for us, I think I can already see that our country’s (idiotic) self-sacrifice (I think it should be framed like this now) and that is far from over, there are signs it has already started to improve the EU systemically and democratically. I think that will continue and we will rejoin substantially worse off, but with a better EU all round for the experience.
Siegfreid
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:13
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Trump's election offered the prospect of a decent economic deal with the UK that created a febrile environment of hopes that the EU markets could be replaced if Brexit negotiations went badly.

Brexiters now have to calculate without a US deal.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:18
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According to Davis 18 months ago we should already have negotiated trade deals across the world by this stage, just waiting to kick into action the day we leave the EU - what a monumentally stupid khunt
Sergio Bogface
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:21
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I think that, if the demographic movement has any impact on the vote, within what is a relatively short time period, then it would probably skew the result in favour of Vote Leave.

It is overly simplistic to assume that all young people will vote Remain, and all old people will vote Leave. They didn't last time, and they wouldn't next time.

About the only age group that probably did have a large degree of homogeneity was the over 80s. Based on a very small sample, I suspect that they were close to 100% Remain. That is the age group who still have childhood memories of WW2, and its aftermath. It is also the age group in which there will have been the most significant shift in numbers. Quite a few of them will have died off, or become senile. I don't see Vote Remain replacing all of them with freshly minted 18 year olds who (1) will automatically vote Remain (they won't) or (2) will get of their arses and vote at all (lots of them won't).



Sergio Bogface
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:27
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I thought that the EU referendum happened before the US election.

At the time that the 52% voted to Leave, not many people anywhere believed that Trump would win, or that he would 'promise the UK a trade deal.' They voted leave with Obama's 'back of the queue' speech ringing in their ears.

They weren't counting on the USA then, and they wouldn't next time either.

Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:35
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"They weren't counting on the USA then, and they wouldn't next time either."


what exactly are they counting on?
341 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:45
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1 hour party person
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:06

"I haven't met any who has changed his mind one way or the other."

People have posted on here that they have changed their mind.

--

Who?
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:48
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I cant remember name now, was a woman, said she voted for Brexit as a general protest against the establishment and now regrets it - took a lot of stick at the time.

Hanners, Brexit is not going to happen and I look forward to the one year "holiday" you will take when this becomes apparent
TDB
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:48
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SumoKing
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:48
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Coffers?
Queenie E
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:55
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Referendums are a terrible thing. Can you imagine if we’d held one on bringing back hanging which won and the government said, “okay then, will of the people and all that, get the ropes ordered lads”

And Anna yes I know half the leave online shite is all bots etc but the sheer amount of it does influence people, as do the media, still

Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:04
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Queen E - what I have noticed is that before the referendum there were loads of bots regurgitating the same copy and pasted nonsense. After the result the bots disappeared and it was just real people saying “we won, you lost, get over it”, and now the bots have started up again saying things like “I voted remain but I would vote leave now”. (No real people actually think that.) The fact that it’s started up again suggests to me that the leavers are running scared and don’t think it’s in the bag yet.

Bogface - you may have a point about the very old backing remain. (AKA the generation who actually fought in/remember the war, rather than the generation who think they beat the Germans even though they were probably still in nappies in 1945.)

But they are a very small number now. Most of them are dead or incapable of going out to vote. The number of people who have gained the right to vote since last year will be greater, and one ray of light in all of this is that it seems to be getting young people more interested in voting.

I also think Sergio (Gropes Arsies) has got a pony. Maybe we need to go through this to see what a bad idea it is. The boomers like to criticise millennials, but the future is in heir hands. They will be the ones cleaning up the mess the boomers made.
Queenie E
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:12
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Anna there are a couple of people that say they would vote leave now but I think the majority of remainers are of the ‘ **** it, let’s just get on with it, am sick of it’. Those of us trying to actively fight it still seem to be in a minority.

For those that think that Brexit is not going to happen, how do you think that will be achieved? Because I can’t see any clear hope atm
January Sails
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:16
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You're all assuming that the EU would just let us stay on our existing terms and wouldn't require us to sign up to the Euro or the like as a condition of retracting Article 50. Something like that would have a significant impact if the choice was Brexit with an ok deal or staying but joining the Eurozone and becoming a cheerleader for a federal Europe.

Polexit also seems to be back on the cards and even Tusk is worried about this and that's why he wants to end his term at the EU and get back into Polish politics. If they trigger Article 50 next year once they see what deal we've got that will also have an impact on other countries and the future of the EU.

It's not as simple as Brexit or just business as usual.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:18
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Yes it is Sails, EU desperately want us to stay - it is laughable they will impose the Euro on us. The worst that will happen is we will lose our rebate - but I suspect if allowing us to keep it meant we stayed, they would allow us to keep it.

This is all about doing everything they can to keep the EU intact.
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:19
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Yeah but there’s a difference between saying “ **** it, im so bored of this, what’s done is done and we just need to get on with it now” and actually voting leave in a second referendum.

Those are people who think that leaving is still a shyt idea, but it’s inevitable now so fighting it is a waste of time. If there were a second referendum (fwiw I doubt there will be), it wouldn’t be inevitable anymore and there would be everything to fight for. You’d only switch from remain to leave if the events of the last 18+ months have convinced you that leaving is actually a good idea (and you’d really have to have had a lobotomy for that to happen).
SumoKing
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:38
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Queenie E
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:55 Report as offensive Report Offensive

Referendums are a terrible thing
____________________________________________________________________

sorry but this is simply not true

what you mean is that in the UK, where you pretend that there is a democracy but in fact only 1/3 of the government (house of commons v house of lords and head of state) is elected by the kindly act of giving proles the opportunity to cast a vote twice a decade (on a work day too) and where you have most industry, finance, government, development and spending consolidated in just one city that having a "once in a generation event" of asking people to whitewash your tough political decision then referendums are a bad idea

the solution is not fewer referendums, the solution is more a kittens ton more because if you really believe in a democracy (which for me in all honesty is probably incompatible with proper libertarianism) you should be running the country according to the will of the people who live in it and this should also mean that people, given the power and burden to take the decisions that affect the country become more interested and involved in the detail.

Rather than now where it is all outsourced and you have no say in how much economic blood is drained out of your town to satisfy London because MPs want to be globally important.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:44
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democracy is more about accountability than the "will of the people". It is about choosing (and having the ability to dispose of) our leaders more than choosing policy. Obviously what policies the potential leaders believe in is important to our choice but that is subtly different thing.
January Sails
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:46
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I couldn't tell you which way I'd go in a second referendum without seeing the detail.

I long ago reached the point where I'd just like to know what is going to happen so I can make plans beyond the next 12 months or so although most of my plans are not really affected by the outcome of Brexit.
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:49
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So we don’t live in a democracy then, 1HPP. Our system is specifically designed so that only a small number of people’s votes actually make any difference and only two parties can realistically win.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:05
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Our system is shyte - I agree.
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:08
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SumoKing
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:38
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Queenie E
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:55 Report as offensive Report Offensive

Referendums are a terrible thing
____________________________________________________________________

sorry but this is simply not true

what you mean is that in the UK, where you pretend that there is a democracy but in fact only 1/3 of the government (house of commons v house of lords and head of state) is elected by the kindly act of giving proles the opportunity to cast a vote twice a decade (on a work day too) and where you have most industry, finance, government, development and spending consolidated in just one city that having a "once in a generation event" of asking people to whitewash your tough political decision then referendums are a bad idea

the solution is not fewer referendums, the solution is more a kittens ton more because if you really believe in a democracy (which for me in all honesty is probably incompatible with proper libertarianism) you should be running the country according to the will of the people who live in it and this should also mean that people, given the power and burden to take the decisions that affect the country become more interested and involved in the detail.

Rather than now where it is all outsourced and you have no say in how much economic blood is drained out of your town to satisfy London because MPs want to be globally important.



I usually agree with you Sumo, but "a shyt tonne more referendums" would not improve "democracy" in any useful sense - it would only increase majoritarianism. The country badly needs much more devolution of power to cities and regions, and to genuinely democratise institutions and politics, starting with regionalism and tax-raising powers (IMO). We also need a lot more civil engagement, and for people to think there is a point in becoming politically engaged all the time, rather than just at elections - as they did in the couple of decades after the war.

But from a standing start, to suggest that "more referenda" is a magic bullet is a fvcking idiotic idea - you would just gift powerful media interests and plutocrats a hundred more amplified opportunities to press their advantage through propaganda and scare campaigns, causing further wrecking to the constitution and harm to the idea of parliamentary democracy.

Democracy is also about having a constitution that is fit for purpose, and that people buy into. Scotland has this - England does not. Some attempt to go referendum-max would turn civic life into a reality TV show. That is why Arron Banks wants to start a political party to put dozens of other hot reactionary topics to referenda, like the death penalty - more power for people like him.
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:33
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I think you either have referendums or you don’t. If you have them, have them reasonably often, on topics which are reasonably easy to understand, and run them well. Otherwise, don’t have them at all.

Reforming the electoral system so it actually reflects the views of the people would be a much better place to start. But Tories - sorry, turkeys aren’t going to vote for Christmas.
point and laugh
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:38
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farage and his gang are still banking on the labour party being as monumentally shite in any ref2 campaign as they were last time, and tbf there's no indication corbyn and his loony ideologues will behave any differently. is a complete disgrace.
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:39
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I'm all for people being given a say if they are informed, and the national debate is measured and sensible.

Again - Scotland has this. England does not. The English people are not treated like adults by their ruling classes because they love the absolutism of Westminster power too much.

An empowered democracy involves much more than the bare act of voting.
Weally Been
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:39
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Stop having referenda - they're too divisive
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:41
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a 2nd referendum will be divisive at the time but not nearly as divisive long term as not having one. Without it, half the country, generally speaking the better educated younger half, will forever feel the whole thing was a big con.
341 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:44
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Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:39

I'm all for people being given a say if they are informed, and the national debate is measured and sensible.

Again - Scotland has this. England does not.

--

A sentiment shared by literally nobody who watch the Indy Ref.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:44
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the big difference between the UK and the other major European nations is that we have not experienced first hand the extreme danger of nationalism and unilateralism in Europe in the way Germany, France, Italy and Spain have - all of whom were basically destroyed because of it and never want to be destroyed again. For some reason, the British are too stupid to learn lessons from others and will have to destroy themselves before they work out we are better working together.
point and laugh
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:45
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Well. Quite.
BREXIT!!
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:47
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"we have not experienced first hand... nationalism and unilateralism in Europe in the way Germany, France, Italy and Spain have"

I OFTEN WONDER WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN HAD WE ONLY CHOSEN A DIFFERENT PATH...
341 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:52
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1 hour party person
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:44

the big difference between the UK and the other major European nations is that we have not experienced first hand the extreme danger of nationalism and unilateralism in Europe in the way Germany, France, Italy and Spain have - all of whom were basically destroyed because of it and never want to be destroyed again. For some reason, the British are too stupid to learn lessons from others and will have to destroy themselves before they work out we are better working together.

--

Or for some reason we are not susceptible to the allure of nationalism to which so many of our neighbours regularly succumb.

It is amusing that people think the EU has got rid of nationalist politics, when the nations which have the strongest adherents to that code - including several which have governments held up by such parties, and others which have actual nationalist governments - are all on the Continent.
kc101
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:01
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British exceptionalism. Reasons. Blah.
BREXIT!!
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:04
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"Or for some reason we are not susceptible to the allure of nationalism to which so many of our neighbours regularly succumb."

WELL LETS HOPE THAT CERTAIN FAR RIGHT PUBLICATIONS THAT CERTAIN FAR RIGHT POSTERS MAY HAVE WORKED FOR

*WINK*

*CHEEKY THUMBS UP*

*WINK*

CAN HELP CORRECT THAT!!
BREXIT!!
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:04
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OOPS! OBVIOUSLY I MEANT CERTAIN "ALT-RIGHT" PUBLICATIONS THAT CERTAIN "ALT-RIGHT" POSTERS MAY HAVE WORKED FOR

MY MISTAKE!!
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:26
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Or for some reason we are not susceptible to the allure of nationalism to which so many of our neighbours regularly succumb.

Hahahahahahahahahaha oh Hanners, you post a lot of shite but that really takes the cake!
341 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:41
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In Britain the likes of Oswald Mosely become imortalised as comic figures like Roderick Spode.

In Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Germany and others, they have from time to time ended up leading the country.
SumoKing
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:46
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Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:08 Report as offensive Report Offensive

I usually agree with you Sumo, but "a shyt tonne more referendums" would not improve "democracy" in any useful sense - it would only increase majoritarianism.

The country badly needs much more devolution of power to cities and regions, and to genuinely democratise institutions and politics, starting with regionalism and tax-raising powers (IMO).

We also need a lot more civil engagement, and for people to think there is a point in becoming politically engaged all the time, rather than just at elections - as they did in the couple of decades after the war.

But from a standing start, to suggest that "more referenda" is a magic bullet is a fvcking idiotic idea - you would just gift powerful media interests and plutocrats a hundred more amplified opportunities to press their advantage through propaganda and scare campaigns, causing further wrecking to the constitution and harm to the idea of parliamentary democracy.
__________________________________________________________

Majoritarianism is democracy. Churchill was right when he democracy was the worst form of government except for all the others. We routinely have majority absolute government with 30 odd % of the vote (for house of commons only) in the UK and then tell people it's completely fair and a model for the world.

I'm not sure the "country" needs more devolution but England certainly does. The country certainly needs a shitt ton of decentralisation because that is driving division and that is driving the independence movement in Scotland.

You seem to be saying we need to wait for people to get smarter before letting them have a say, I'm saying they have no incentive to get smarter than if they have referenda to decide on a fairly regular basis and yes, you might get idiots bringing back hanging (though I suspect that would fail despite their being a vocal majority a lot of people don't want to risk getting the drop for some bad shitt they did when they though they could get away with it in the 70s) and you might get people expelling all africans or a vote on english independence but having to grapple with these issues makes the electorate smarter and more engaged rather than the tedious cavalcade of bland bullshitt that you get twice a decade for a GE.

They're not great but they are better than the farcical pretense that we have now.

Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:48
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"Majoritarianism is democracy"

That is a far far too simplistic view of democracy and leads to very dangerous places.
SumoKing
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:56
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1 hour party person
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:48 Report as offensive Report Offensive
"Majoritarianism is democracy"

That is a far far too simplistic view of democracy and leads to very dangerous places.
_______________________________________________________________________

Dem ocracy is not in itself a "safe" government, it's big flaw (and the reason it's incompatible with libertarianism) is that 51% can dominate 49%

we had this for years before there was devolution in scotland, arguably you had it when the hunting ban came in when the smoking ban came in and when they moved the cannabis classifications around

in a democracy, particularly in a democracy that has no rule book for the law makers (i.e. the UK!) the majority gets what it wants and the MPs (as they do now) cry "we're only following orders, I mean the will of the people"
Gropies Arsies
Posted - 12 January 2018 14:09
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347 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:45
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1 hour party person
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:06

"I haven't met any who has changed his mind one way or the other."

People have posted on here that they have changed their mind.

--

Who?



I think Panda is the only Brexiter brave enough so far to admit that he now thinks Brexit was a mistake
Gropies Arsies
Posted - 12 January 2018 14:11
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Let's face it, in a decade when we're back in the EU people will try to pretend they never voted to Leave. Doesn't really matter who hasn't or has changed their mind.

Opinion polls show a marked lurch towards Remain over the last month or so, from narrowly Remain for most of 2017.

I don't think we can really take anything from it though, the fact is that between 2010-2015, wanting to leave the EU had a massive majority on polling but in the end we only narrowly voted to Leave.
Jonas
Posted - 12 January 2018 14:25
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This is exceptionally clever. Farage knows there is never going to be a 2nd referendum.

This way he can now tell remainders that he offered up a second referendum but they bottled it by not calling one.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 14:27
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"I think Panda is the only Brexiter brave enough so far to admit that he now thinks Brexit was a mistake"

There was definitely a woman as well - just cannot remember her name
Here Comes Suzy Snowflake
Posted - 12 January 2018 15:01
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What power does Farage have to “offer” anything? He isn’t even an MP and soon he will be unemployed.
341 sleeps till Christmas
Posted - 12 January 2018 15:05
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Gropies Arsies
Posted - 12 January 2018 14:11

I don't think we can really take anything from it though, the fact is that between 2010-2015, wanting to leave the EU had a massive majority on polling but in the end we only narrowly voted to Leave

--

Banks and Farage appeared to be doing all they could during the campaign to make Leave lose the sort of thoughtful moderate voters Johnson, Gove, Stuart, Grayling and Patel were persuading...
Gropies Arsies
Posted - 12 January 2018 15:24
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literally no thoughtful moderate voted Leave, Hanners. Not a single one.
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 12 January 2018 16:24
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Sumo

You rightly spot that the UK's lack of a written constitution is one of our political problems. That is a reason to put one in place.

Majority voting - say, for elected representatives or a head of state - is certainly one of the *necessary* conditions for a democracy. It isn't a *sufficient* condition (for a healthy democracy) by itself, though - any more than a lawnmower with a 3l car engine is a "car". Checks and balances, a constitution people buy into and support, a shared culture based around that constitution are just as important.

And it certainly doesn't follow that because we must have majority-based voting, we should organise politics around referendums. They are distorting, time-consuming, and create big problems with everyone focusing on the tooth-and-nail fight over the next referendum instead of the day to day business of governing.

Politics is complex and should not be boiled down to a parade of yes or no questions.
SumoKing
Posted - 14 January 2018 07:10
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Is politics complex? Or is this just another way of telling the masses that that they shoild out of the way because the red priests and blue priests know best?