Main Discussion

Rate it
0
Report as offensive
Cyprian
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:29
Brilliant. Let's do it.
Used Psychology
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:30
Report as offensive
Heh.

Soon to be redundant, divorced man in mid-50s suddenly discovers nostalgia for what made him well known shocka?
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:30
Report as offensive
For the first time ever I completely agree with him - once the brexit deal is known have a referendum on taking that or staying. If Leavers win, I for one will shut up on the subject and I imagine that every one else will too. If it is not done this country will remain divided for a generation.
Queenie E
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:34
Report as offensive
Any second referendum would be an even higher result for leave. If there was evidence of manipulation in the first one then you ain’t seen nothing yet
Used Psychology
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:37
Report as offensive
Heh.

The demographics are changing. Any second referendum would still be close.
Perfidious Porpoise
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:38
Report as offensive
Wouldn't the EU have to agree to let us change our minds (if we do)?
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:39
Report as offensive
Would be fascinating to see which side May comes down on...
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:39
Report as offensive
Wouldn't the EU have to agree to let us change our minds (if we do)?

They would like a shot, it has been hinted at many times.
BREXIT!!
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:46
Report as offensive
I DON'T BELIEVE IT!

FAKE NEWS!!
SumoKing
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:47
Report as offensive
makes you wonder what Barnier said to him
BREXIT!!
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:48
Report as offensive
QUICK! SOMEBODY NEEDS TO TELL NIGEL FARAGE THAT HIS TWITTER ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED!!

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/951400764697653248
Abbeywell/NSA
Posted - 11 January 2018 11:48
Report as offensive
Doesn't he have a good pension for being an ex MEP to look forward to post Brexit
Used Psychology
Posted - 11 January 2018 12:07
Report as offensive
It could be Barnier said he won;t be getting a pension after all, or will have to rely on the UK government for it.

THAT's what has changed his mind...
Coracle Lolling
Posted - 11 January 2018 12:10
Report as offensive
Any second referendum would be an even higher result for leave.

Depends entirely whether pre or post deal.

At the moment Leave (trailing slightly in the polls, but still within the margin of error) are still benefiting from their having and eating cake position.

There is no one Leave model. Each different option has different disadvantages that will alienate different Leave voters. No one Leave option would command a majority.

Until a deal is concluded they can continue to promise anything to anybody, whilst simultaneously preaching contradictory positions.

Make them choose a solution and their slim majority evaporates.
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 12:11
Report as offensive
I thought Farage had a new lucrative career giving talks to quasi-fascists?
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 12:11
Report as offensive
No point at all in having a pre-deal referendum.
GMT
Posted - 11 January 2018 12:14
Report as offensive
Yes, this should definitely happen, but agreed only once the terms of the proposed deal (which Parliament will get to vote on anyhow) are known.
Siegfreid
Posted - 11 January 2018 14:20
Report as offensive
It might be an idea to let the voters see what life looks like outside of the EU and whether they really want to compete with low wage, low regulation economies.

It'll be hard to argue that freedom from the EU superstate/faceless unelected undemocratic bureaucrats is worth it, if the victory is rhetorical, objective success a chimera and the people in the long queue for free soup have full time jobs.
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 14:45
Report as offensive
Either that or they will turn to socialism, which will be far easier to introduce outside the EU....
pancake humper
Posted - 11 January 2018 14:47
Report as offensive
Queenie E
Posted - 11 January 2018 14:48
Report as offensive
Aron Banks now whining too

The lizard overlords must be getting twitchy
Old Man Of Hoy
Posted - 11 January 2018 14:52
Report as offensive
“I met Farage on the way--
He had a mask like Boris--
Very smooth he look'd yet grim;
Seven bloodhounds followed him…”

With apologies to PBS
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:22
Report as offensive
I think energies are probably best used in trying to reach a non-insane settlement for leaving ("Norway but for immigration", with generous regional quotas for foreign labour except in Leave areas) rather than this.

What kind of hellfire do you think Dacre, Murdoch, Leave.UK, RT / Breitbart would cook up if we re-ran the vote this year? Can you IMAGINE? Even calling the rerun would be billed as worse than a thousand treasons, a great place to start for Remain II, not.

Would the government of the day campaign for its official position (leave with no plan!) or stay neutral? I think Farage knows all this and can stir (as usual) with impunity.


Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:27
Report as offensive
Banks and Fadge have just lost their satanic contact with America's fascists, remember (Mr Bannon) and are probably casting around for some regained influence.
Patience Groove
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:29
Report as offensive
"Even calling the rerun would be billed as worse than a thousand treasons, a great place to start for Remain II, not."

But this argument would be ludicrous, in a democracy people are allowed to change their minds. If people haven't, fine but if they have why should we stick with a decision made before most relevant info was available?
BREXIT!!
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:41
Report as offensive
"in a democracy people are allowed to change their minds"

THIS MAKES NO SENSE!

PLUCKY BRITS HAVE ALREADY VOTED FOR BREXIT!

AND BREXIT IS WHATEVER BREXIT TURNS OUT TO BE - AFTER ALL, BREXIT MEANS BREXIT - SO PLUCKY BRITS HAVE ALREADY VOTED FOR THE FINAL DEAL!

HOW CAN ANYONE BE SIMULTANEOUSLY FOR AND AGAINST THE FINAL DEAL: IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:48
Report as offensive
1 hour party person - I'm not talking about rationality or what is right, I'm talking about what DEFINITELY WOULD happen in the country we currently live in.

The rightwing propaganda machine would kick into a gear than would make 2016 look like the heyday of Cool Britannia. Teresa May would be unable to resist trying to make hay with the white hot outrage that would go on for months.

People who had nothing to lose in 2016 have now got even less to lose, thanks to another 18 months of capable Conservative rule...

Clegg v Farage. People fvcking love Farage, and just because people are idiots and have a massive boner for shouty cartoon authority figures in red trousers does not make the love any less real or electorally relevant. He is panting for a re-run because it will make him relevant again, and probably wreck the country (again) but even more so.
BREXIT!!
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:50
Report as offensive
"People fvcking love Farage, and just because people are idiots and have a massive boner for shouty cartoon authority figures in red trousers does not make the love any less real or electorally relevant. He is panting for a re-run because it will make him relevant again, and probably wreck the country (again) but even more so."

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SAYING DEFINITIVELY THAT I CAN'T BE WON OVER BY THE PROSPECT OF A SECOND REFERENDUM

"What kind of hellfire do you think Dacre, Murdoch, Leave.UK, RT / Breitbart would cook up if we re-ran the vote this year? Can you IMAGINE? Even calling the rerun would be billed as worse than a thousand treasons, a great place to start for Remain II, not."

I CAN SEE THAT IT POTENTIALLY HAS CERTAIN ATTRACTIONS
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:51
Report as offensive
This is how Hugenberg screwed up Weimar, by making the Young Plan a massive wedge issue and going back, and back, and back to it even after it was revised.
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 15:58
Report as offensive
Just the thought of it makes me almost quite like the situation we're in now - UKIP marginalised, far right beginning to look on the back foot here and in (some) other countries, a desperate Tory administration groping, humiliatingly, towards a probably not very good but at least semi-rationally reached deal, and owning it with both hands.
Queenie E
Posted - 11 January 2018 18:06
Report as offensive
Stanley Johnsons and Liz Trusses aside, remainers will not have switched to leave. ANd there is scant evidence that there are lots of repentant leavers. Because the Leave online presence is a lot frothier and louder than the remain one. And in the event of a second referendum they would really put a lot of money behind the bots to influence people. And lots of people who didn’t really care either way voted leave because they thought everyone else was would be influenced by this. And the majority of people are sick to death of the whole fucking thing anyway and might refuse to go out and vote again.

It’s all academic anyway as there categorically will not be a second referendum. It’s not like Banks and Fartage have had a sudden change of heart, is it?
Either way, not worth the risk of asking the great British public again.
Queenie E
Posted - 11 January 2018 18:08
Report as offensive
Okay my head is thick with lurgy and I am struggling to get my point across here but there is a lot is depairing material on the fb 48% group. I just don’t think a remain victory would be in the bag
The Goose
Posted - 11 January 2018 19:10
Report as offensive
"I’m convinced of it, Queen E. (And my predictions have been prettt bang on so far.)"

LOL.
Queenie E
Posted - 11 January 2018 19:19
Report as offensive
Yes and for all your anecdotal evidence there are posts on the 48% group of people that would now change to leave. Care to take a punt on what the result would be on a second referendum?

(For the record, I also correctly predicted a leave win ??)
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 19:56
Report as offensive
Suzy - Yeah OK I can see an argument from previously ill motivated young people voting who didn't previously. But I certainly wouldn't want to put money on it, and there's every indication that Corbs would be just as lacklustre in getting his youth vote out for remain as before.

On the basis that absolutely nothing Nigel Farage wants is going to do me any good at all, there's no way I would get behind a second vote.


And I think you're making a mistake about the right wing press. I do not think we've yet seen the extent of influence they could wield if they wanted to, and I don't want to see it, either. Murdoch in the US is basically radio-controlling the president through Fox & Friends. A second vote is just inviting that level of fvckery here (plus a good few million no doubt dropped with Cambridge Analytica who we haven't even begun to deal with, and on and on.)
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 20:02
Report as offensive
Also, what's changed in Leave areas? Are people less resentful than in 2016?

Sure, there have been some press stories about e.g. people in Halifax finding out they'd lose Nissan and some similar stuff around fishermen, but I'd bet those sorts of direct exposures for particular industries are outweighed by people who just feel in their gut that it's right. Not to mention the Home Counties voters who aren't a bit economically disadvantaged but voted Leave because, well, tweed jackets and Empire.

They haven't all started reading the Guardian and the Mirror. There are no charismatic politicians or establishment figures making a plausible case for Remain. So I reckon Leave would get it again.
Siegfreid
Posted - 11 January 2018 20:19
Report as offensive
It's too early to call another referendum. What's interesting is that the Brexiter in chief must realise that Trump won't save the UK and that the longer they leave it, the more likely it is that a second referendum would confound the result of the first.
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 11 January 2018 20:34
Report as offensive
People are boundlessly stupid. They think that the troubles going on are necessary - all part of still being IN, when what is needed is to be OUT.
Siegfreid
Posted - 11 January 2018 22:03
Report as offensive
I haven't met any who has changed his mind one way or the other.

Faring says that he is considering supporting a second referendum because his meeting with Barnier convinced him that he would not give the UK a good deal.

Three things: has it taken a meeting with Barnier for him to understand that the EU was never going to give the UK a good deal?

Second: the UK apparently didn't need a good deal from the EU. Why is it different now?

Third: he does not say how a second referendum will change for the better points one and two.

He has jumped the shark. There are some choice comment, "Lead, Nigel, and we, your loyal foot soldiers will follow and fight, nay to die, for the cause. We await your commands." He'd hit the port a bit heavily that old fart.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:06
Report as offensive
"I haven't met any who has changed his mind one way or the other."

People have posted on here that they have changed their mind.

Farage was on radio this morning "clarifying" that he didnt want one but he now thought a 2nd referendum was likely as parliament would not accept the shitty deal we are likely to get from the EU.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:07
Report as offensive
My belief is that, save for a few headbangers the government itself is counting on a 2nd referendum, but of course cannot hint at that at the moment as it will incentivise the EU to offer us feck all.
Siegfreid
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:13
Report as offensive
Trump's election offered the prospect of a decent economic deal with the UK that created a febrile environment of hopes that the EU markets could be replaced if Brexit negotiations went badly.

Brexiters now have to calculate without a US deal.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:18
Report as offensive
According to Davis 18 months ago we should already have negotiated trade deals across the world by this stage, just waiting to kick into action the day we leave the EU - what a monumentally stupid khunt
Sergio Bogface
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:21
Report as offensive
I think that, if the demographic movement has any impact on the vote, within what is a relatively short time period, then it would probably skew the result in favour of Vote Leave.

It is overly simplistic to assume that all young people will vote Remain, and all old people will vote Leave. They didn't last time, and they wouldn't next time.

About the only age group that probably did have a large degree of homogeneity was the over 80s. Based on a very small sample, I suspect that they were close to 100% Remain. That is the age group who still have childhood memories of WW2, and its aftermath. It is also the age group in which there will have been the most significant shift in numbers. Quite a few of them will have died off, or become senile. I don't see Vote Remain replacing all of them with freshly minted 18 year olds who (1) will automatically vote Remain (they won't) or (2) will get of their arses and vote at all (lots of them won't).



Sergio Bogface
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:27
Report as offensive
I thought that the EU referendum happened before the US election.

At the time that the 52% voted to Leave, not many people anywhere believed that Trump would win, or that he would 'promise the UK a trade deal.' They voted leave with Obama's 'back of the queue' speech ringing in their ears.

They weren't counting on the USA then, and they wouldn't next time either.

Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:35
Report as offensive
"They weren't counting on the USA then, and they wouldn't next time either."


what exactly are they counting on?
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:48
Report as offensive
I cant remember name now, was a woman, said she voted for Brexit as a general protest against the establishment and now regrets it - took a lot of stick at the time.

Hanners, Brexit is not going to happen and I look forward to the one year "holiday" you will take when this becomes apparent
SumoKing
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:48
Report as offensive
Coffers?
Queenie E
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:55
Report as offensive
Referendums are a terrible thing. Can you imagine if we’d held one on bringing back hanging which won and the government said, “okay then, will of the people and all that, get the ropes ordered lads”

And Anna yes I know half the leave online shite is all bots etc but the sheer amount of it does influence people, as do the media, still

Queenie E
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:12
Report as offensive
Anna there are a couple of people that say they would vote leave now but I think the majority of remainers are of the ‘ **** it, let’s just get on with it, am sick of it’. Those of us trying to actively fight it still seem to be in a minority.

For those that think that Brexit is not going to happen, how do you think that will be achieved? Because I can’t see any clear hope atm
January Sails
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:16
Report as offensive
You're all assuming that the EU would just let us stay on our existing terms and wouldn't require us to sign up to the Euro or the like as a condition of retracting Article 50. Something like that would have a significant impact if the choice was Brexit with an ok deal or staying but joining the Eurozone and becoming a cheerleader for a federal Europe.

Polexit also seems to be back on the cards and even Tusk is worried about this and that's why he wants to end his term at the EU and get back into Polish politics. If they trigger Article 50 next year once they see what deal we've got that will also have an impact on other countries and the future of the EU.

It's not as simple as Brexit or just business as usual.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:18
Report as offensive
Yes it is Sails, EU desperately want us to stay - it is laughable they will impose the Euro on us. The worst that will happen is we will lose our rebate - but I suspect if allowing us to keep it meant we stayed, they would allow us to keep it.

This is all about doing everything they can to keep the EU intact.
SumoKing
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:38
Report as offensive
Queenie E
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:55 Report as offensive Report Offensive

Referendums are a terrible thing
____________________________________________________________________

sorry but this is simply not true

what you mean is that in the UK, where you pretend that there is a democracy but in fact only 1/3 of the government (house of commons v house of lords and head of state) is elected by the kindly act of giving proles the opportunity to cast a vote twice a decade (on a work day too) and where you have most industry, finance, government, development and spending consolidated in just one city that having a "once in a generation event" of asking people to whitewash your tough political decision then referendums are a bad idea

the solution is not fewer referendums, the solution is more a kittens ton more because if you really believe in a democracy (which for me in all honesty is probably incompatible with proper libertarianism) you should be running the country according to the will of the people who live in it and this should also mean that people, given the power and burden to take the decisions that affect the country become more interested and involved in the detail.

Rather than now where it is all outsourced and you have no say in how much economic blood is drained out of your town to satisfy London because MPs want to be globally important.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:44
Report as offensive
democracy is more about accountability than the "will of the people". It is about choosing (and having the ability to dispose of) our leaders more than choosing policy. Obviously what policies the potential leaders believe in is important to our choice but that is subtly different thing.
January Sails
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:46
Report as offensive
I couldn't tell you which way I'd go in a second referendum without seeing the detail.

I long ago reached the point where I'd just like to know what is going to happen so I can make plans beyond the next 12 months or so although most of my plans are not really affected by the outcome of Brexit.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:05
Report as offensive
Our system is shyte - I agree.
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:08
Report as offensive
SumoKing
Posted - 12 January 2018 10:38
Report as offensive

Queenie E
Posted - 12 January 2018 09:55 Report as offensive Report Offensive

Referendums are a terrible thing
____________________________________________________________________

sorry but this is simply not true

what you mean is that in the UK, where you pretend that there is a democracy but in fact only 1/3 of the government (house of commons v house of lords and head of state) is elected by the kindly act of giving proles the opportunity to cast a vote twice a decade (on a work day too) and where you have most industry, finance, government, development and spending consolidated in just one city that having a "once in a generation event" of asking people to whitewash your tough political decision then referendums are a bad idea

the solution is not fewer referendums, the solution is more a kittens ton more because if you really believe in a democracy (which for me in all honesty is probably incompatible with proper libertarianism) you should be running the country according to the will of the people who live in it and this should also mean that people, given the power and burden to take the decisions that affect the country become more interested and involved in the detail.

Rather than now where it is all outsourced and you have no say in how much economic blood is drained out of your town to satisfy London because MPs want to be globally important.



I usually agree with you Sumo, but "a shyt tonne more referendums" would not improve "democracy" in any useful sense - it would only increase majoritarianism. The country badly needs much more devolution of power to cities and regions, and to genuinely democratise institutions and politics, starting with regionalism and tax-raising powers (IMO). We also need a lot more civil engagement, and for people to think there is a point in becoming politically engaged all the time, rather than just at elections - as they did in the couple of decades after the war.

But from a standing start, to suggest that "more referenda" is a magic bullet is a fvcking idiotic idea - you would just gift powerful media interests and plutocrats a hundred more amplified opportunities to press their advantage through propaganda and scare campaigns, causing further wrecking to the constitution and harm to the idea of parliamentary democracy.

Democracy is also about having a constitution that is fit for purpose, and that people buy into. Scotland has this - England does not. Some attempt to go referendum-max would turn civic life into a reality TV show. That is why Arron Banks wants to start a political party to put dozens of other hot reactionary topics to referenda, like the death penalty - more power for people like him.
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:39
Report as offensive
I'm all for people being given a say if they are informed, and the national debate is measured and sensible.

Again - Scotland has this. England does not. The English people are not treated like adults by their ruling classes because they love the absolutism of Westminster power too much.

An empowered democracy involves much more than the bare act of voting.
Weally Been
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:39
Report as offensive
Stop having referenda - they're too divisive
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:41
Report as offensive
a 2nd referendum will be divisive at the time but not nearly as divisive long term as not having one. Without it, half the country, generally speaking the better educated younger half, will forever feel the whole thing was a big con.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:44
Report as offensive
the big difference between the UK and the other major European nations is that we have not experienced first hand the extreme danger of nationalism and unilateralism in Europe in the way Germany, France, Italy and Spain have - all of whom were basically destroyed because of it and never want to be destroyed again. For some reason, the British are too stupid to learn lessons from others and will have to destroy themselves before they work out we are better working together.
BREXIT!!
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:47
Report as offensive
"we have not experienced first hand... nationalism and unilateralism in Europe in the way Germany, France, Italy and Spain have"

I OFTEN WONDER WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN HAD WE ONLY CHOSEN A DIFFERENT PATH...
kc101
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:01
Report as offensive
British exceptionalism. Reasons. Blah.
BREXIT!!
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:04
Report as offensive
"Or for some reason we are not susceptible to the allure of nationalism to which so many of our neighbours regularly succumb."

WELL LETS HOPE THAT CERTAIN FAR RIGHT PUBLICATIONS THAT CERTAIN FAR RIGHT POSTERS MAY HAVE WORKED FOR

*WINK*

*CHEEKY THUMBS UP*

*WINK*

CAN HELP CORRECT THAT!!
BREXIT!!
Posted - 12 January 2018 12:04
Report as offensive
OOPS! OBVIOUSLY I MEANT CERTAIN "ALT-RIGHT" PUBLICATIONS THAT CERTAIN "ALT-RIGHT" POSTERS MAY HAVE WORKED FOR

MY MISTAKE!!
SumoKing
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:46
Report as offensive
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 12 January 2018 11:08 Report as offensive Report Offensive

I usually agree with you Sumo, but "a shyt tonne more referendums" would not improve "democracy" in any useful sense - it would only increase majoritarianism.

The country badly needs much more devolution of power to cities and regions, and to genuinely democratise institutions and politics, starting with regionalism and tax-raising powers (IMO).

We also need a lot more civil engagement, and for people to think there is a point in becoming politically engaged all the time, rather than just at elections - as they did in the couple of decades after the war.

But from a standing start, to suggest that "more referenda" is a magic bullet is a fvcking idiotic idea - you would just gift powerful media interests and plutocrats a hundred more amplified opportunities to press their advantage through propaganda and scare campaigns, causing further wrecking to the constitution and harm to the idea of parliamentary democracy.
__________________________________________________________

Majoritarianism is democracy. Churchill was right when he democracy was the worst form of government except for all the others. We routinely have majority absolute government with 30 odd % of the vote (for house of commons only) in the UK and then tell people it's completely fair and a model for the world.

I'm not sure the "country" needs more devolution but England certainly does. The country certainly needs a shitt ton of decentralisation because that is driving division and that is driving the independence movement in Scotland.

You seem to be saying we need to wait for people to get smarter before letting them have a say, I'm saying they have no incentive to get smarter than if they have referenda to decide on a fairly regular basis and yes, you might get idiots bringing back hanging (though I suspect that would fail despite their being a vocal majority a lot of people don't want to risk getting the drop for some bad shitt they did when they though they could get away with it in the 70s) and you might get people expelling all africans or a vote on english independence but having to grapple with these issues makes the electorate smarter and more engaged rather than the tedious cavalcade of bland bullshitt that you get twice a decade for a GE.

They're not great but they are better than the farcical pretense that we have now.

Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:48
Report as offensive
"Majoritarianism is democracy"

That is a far far too simplistic view of democracy and leads to very dangerous places.
SumoKing
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:56
Report as offensive
1 hour party person
Posted - 12 January 2018 13:48 Report as offensive Report Offensive
"Majoritarianism is democracy"

That is a far far too simplistic view of democracy and leads to very dangerous places.
_______________________________________________________________________

Dem ocracy is not in itself a "safe" government, it's big flaw (and the reason it's incompatible with libertarianism) is that 51% can dominate 49%

we had this for years before there was devolution in scotland, arguably you had it when the hunting ban came in when the smoking ban came in and when they moved the cannabis classifications around

in a democracy, particularly in a democracy that has no rule book for the law makers (i.e. the UK!) the majority gets what it wants and the MPs (as they do now) cry "we're only following orders, I mean the will of the people"
Jonas
Posted - 12 January 2018 14:25
Report as offensive
This is exceptionally clever. Farage knows there is never going to be a 2nd referendum.

This way he can now tell remainders that he offered up a second referendum but they bottled it by not calling one.
Patience Groove
Posted - 12 January 2018 14:27
Report as offensive
"I think Panda is the only Brexiter brave enough so far to admit that he now thinks Brexit was a mistake"

There was definitely a woman as well - just cannot remember her name
Discworld_Librarian
Posted - 12 January 2018 16:24
Report as offensive
Sumo

You rightly spot that the UK's lack of a written constitution is one of our political problems. That is a reason to put one in place.

Majority voting - say, for elected representatives or a head of state - is certainly one of the *necessary* conditions for a democracy. It isn't a *sufficient* condition (for a healthy democracy) by itself, though - any more than a lawnmower with a 3l car engine is a "car". Checks and balances, a constitution people buy into and support, a shared culture based around that constitution are just as important.

And it certainly doesn't follow that because we must have majority-based voting, we should organise politics around referendums. They are distorting, time-consuming, and create big problems with everyone focusing on the tooth-and-nail fight over the next referendum instead of the day to day business of governing.

Politics is complex and should not be boiled down to a parade of yes or no questions.
SumoKing
Posted - 14 January 2018 07:10
Report as offensive
Is politics complex? Or is this just another way of telling the masses that that they shoild out of the way because the red priests and blue priests know best?
Shooter
Posted - 14 February 2018 11:16
Report as offensive
tun.
SumoKing
Posted - 14 February 2018 11:26
Report as offensive
how the fcuk did this tun?
Third Half
Posted - 14 February 2018 11:40
Report as offensive
Without having read the whole thread and so I may be repeating what others have said above, if there was a second referendum some two years after the first (whatever the exact question), there would be a slightly different voting demographic;

- a number of the older voters (likely Brexit supporters) will have passed on
- a couple of years worth of then 16 & 17 year olds, not eligible to vote 2 years ago will now be
- a number of those who chose not to vote Remain but failed to do so because they complacently thought that Remain would win would surely turn out for a second referendum (similarly those who tended to ‘Leave” but did not vote would now probably do so as well.)
- there will be a perhaps tens of thousands of r27 nationals (something like 60,000 probably) who have since 2016 become UK citizens and who will be eligible to vote (either prompted by the Brexit vote or simply in the course of establishing their lives in the UK some of these will have had applications in prior to the 2016 referendum but not received UK citizenship and/or changed their electoral status on the roll.)

*actually it is more like r24, I think, as Irish nationals in the UK could vote as could (I think) Maltese and Cypriots; the latter two on the basis of being Commonwealth as well as EU citizens.

I am not sure that any one of those probable changes would swing a second referendum toward Remain but aggregated they probably would.
Shooter
Posted - 14 February 2018 11:50
Report as offensive
Dunno Sumo. I just discovered that you can put the threads in order of number of posts, and noticed that yours was hovering on 99. Thought I give it that final push.

You're welcome.