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polz
Posted - 09 March 2017 07:52
I've always been adamant that I will not accept such a pay gap. It is worth rattling the cage. I was called in, out-of-the-blue and out of cycle, last Oct and my salary raised by £25K. I no longer give them an earful about it.
Misshoolie
Posted - 09 March 2017 07:54
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Please can the sad! thing stop. It's awful

Misshoolie
Posted - 09 March 2017 07:57
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I did last year for the first time ever. I didn't name a figure, they gave me 4K

So there is something to be said for it if you're fairly confident colleagues are being paid more.

I don't earn mega bucks because I never pointed my career at the big time stuff. I work for a very reputable firm for my practice area, but our pay is constrained by what the client will pay.
Martian Law
Posted - 09 March 2017 07:58
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Hools- are you an NHSLA instructed lawyer or an MDO instructed lawyer?
Misshoolie
Posted - 09 March 2017 07:59
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We not going to say tbh. Bit outy there m7
polz
Posted - 09 March 2017 08:00
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heh, well said on the sad! thing. a trumpism that tecco latched on to.
Pinkus
Posted - 09 March 2017 08:05
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Suspect in general people get paid more cos:

1. Some initial good fortune:
1.1 being born in close proximity to London or other major UK commercial hub;
1.2 Parents who are already in a 'professional' industry so have knowledge of career path, maybe contacts who can help;

2. Good school -- private education is clearly a bonus -- and parental support;

3. Good academics; good university

4. Clear idea of what they want to achieve and the will to follow that through;

5. A bit of hard work; a bit of good fortune to get into a good position;

6. Then it's a case of grinding out the levels, knowing the right people and luck.


polz
Posted - 09 March 2017 08:05
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In my last job I had them benchmark me on the market rate - HR went off and found out what our competitors were paying. They came back and said, well you're head of but you don't manage staff and showed different levels - we agreed together where to position me. People in my dept always tell me what they're earning and so I usually know where I am vis-a-vis my colleagues. I'm never greedy but it infuriates me if there is an unjustified pay gap and I'm performing.
SumoKing
Posted - 09 March 2017 08:08
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saoirse99
Posted - 09 March 2017 07:54 Report as offensive Report Offensive

That just wouldn't work in my line of work. There aren't many tax people but it's a corner most places are willing to cut.
_____________________________________________________________________

Bollocks, the problem is you're comfy and gutless, every business across the globe is being pressured about their effective tax rates and looming BEPs, PE risks, Cross border fund repatriation via digital models.

If you really cared, you'd resign and move for more wedge, but there's no way you ever will, because you're just counting the days until, her face bloated and yellow from liver failure, your boss calls you to her death bed and, in a croaky whisper, explains that everyone else is totally incompetent and that you, the long-suffering Clergs H Am, are the only one qualified to run the department and you weep shameful tears because you know that terrible place is the only true love you will ever know.
Keef_
Posted - 09 March 2017 08:17
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The problem isn't the negotiation it's the job


Keef_
Posted - 09 March 2017 08:20
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But you can have a plan. You're still young enough to plot a course for a different career path.
Misshoolie
Posted - 09 March 2017 08:38
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Law but not where you are, or working for who you work for.
Misshoolie
Posted - 09 March 2017 08:42
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Phoebe Caulfield
Posted - 09 March 2017 08:47
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There are lots of surveys in my area of work that let you know where you sit on the salary scale.

I am at the top of mine so no negotiating for me
Trigger Warning
Posted - 09 March 2017 08:55
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Who do you think are well paid and who is not? Most on here are just above or below the average for professionals in their age category. There's very few outliers.
Trigger Warning
Posted - 09 March 2017 09:09
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Yeah, and most are somewhere in the middle. The ones that are at the higher end of that range: it really is like Pinkus said all a matter of luck (mostly), determination and hard work help too.
Misshoolie
Posted - 09 March 2017 09:26
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Tbh I'd be surprised if the majority of salaried roffers and fettes earned more than 100k

It's probably less than you would assume from all the "short of cash? Sell your least favourite watch" bragging

Tom Linorder
Posted - 09 March 2017 09:39
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I'm not paid what I am worth, for the same reason as the OP.

Sad!
tuscaniopolis
Posted - 09 March 2017 09:43
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It's due to inherited wealth and upbringing


Obv
3-ducks
Posted - 09 March 2017 09:48
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This is what SURVEY MONKEY was invented for!
wangpain 4 nuclear disarmament
Posted - 09 March 2017 09:52
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Answering those questions honestly would make it WAY easy for the surveyor to guess who you are!
Bright Carver
Posted - 09 March 2017 09:56
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Confidence is all.

Ask and ye shall receive. If you don't, move somewhere you do.

---

“Sincerity - if you can fake that, you've got it made.”

- George Burns
Lydia
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:01
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Pinkus has a good list,
I would be interest in why I earn more than sao, though. We are both from the North. I could have ended up doing tax law.
So what is the difference? That I was prepared to get on my bike and move but she had to stay near the hated mother? Did one of us get better exam results? Did I move jobs more? Luck?

These surveys can be far too identifying so I wouldn't bother. I once was put in charge of one at work and unlses the categories were very wide it was too identifying.
Captain Mal
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:04
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So what is the difference?

Two very middle class parents who pushed you to succeed and sent you to private school?
Wellington
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:07
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hang on, aren't we all on 340 netnets?
Bright Carver
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:09
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I shall endeavour to get one of the staff to complete your survey for me later, Clergs.
🐝 buzz
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:11
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I actually did do some rabbit law as a trainee. Defending claims against a landowner on whose land rabbits lived causing damage to neighbours crops. Had to do a few applications in Staffs County Court discussing with a DJ Roman Law guff like the distinction between ferae naturae and animus revertendi.

Wasn't me on the survey though.
polz
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:14
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my firewall is blocking it.

How many responses are you getting.
Massive fuckwit
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:16
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Before posting I convert my earnings into Italian lira at the 1987 rate them multiply by an adjusts weighted average of whatever anyone else has said and claim it as GBP. Doesn't everyone?
🐝 buzz
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:19
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There's some good case law on it. Mostly using the old term for bunnies, "conies"
3-ducks
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:21
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Tbf they're much of a muchness. Both vg.


saoirse99
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:04
went to a better university than you
pancake humper
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:34
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Because law is a deeply weird industry that has a very structured, reliable career path for anyone reasonably competent to earn deep into six figures per year while mostly doing technical, individual work and almost nothing entrepreneurial.

I don't think most lawyers appreciate the fact that it is literally the only industry where this is the case.

The differentiating factor between lawyers is mostly who can handle the hours and who managed to get their foot in the door at the right places early on.
Coracle Lolling
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:39
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Pinkus has a good list,
I would be interest in why I earn more than sao, though. We are both from the North. I could have ended up doing tax law.
So what is the difference? That I was prepared to get on my bike and move but she had to stay near the hated mother? Did one of us get better exam results? Did I move jobs more? Luck?

These surveys can be far too identifying so I wouldn't bother. I once was put in charge of one at work and unlses the categories were very wide it was too identifying.


About 25 years
.....Meh
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:58
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I did some horse law briefly? If that counts? Not as cute as rabbits but hey.

Obvs I'm on 340netnet
Lydia
Posted - 09 March 2017 10:59
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"you have 10 years head start on me and a posh accent, I qualified about 6 months before the credit crunch and have a Scottish accent" . Yes so that is 1985 v 2008 = 23 years. 9 year PQE. At that stage - exactly when I set up on my own actually. So I'd worked for 3 law firms (and had 3 babies so pooled resources with a husband and had been married for 11 years).

9 years PQE at S&M or a similar firm in London will be £100k plus I suppose. We certainly had no savings, just loads of childcare expenses. I remember driving the 3 Ls to see my work once. I was in the underground car park and a lawyer of the same age (child free) got out of her immaculate sports car and I got the children out of the old banger in their second hand mismatched Oxfam shop clothes and thought - wow I'm so rich with these gorgeous sweet toddlers and the like. Lucky me. Anyway we had no spare cash but I did an awful lot in addition to the day job as did Mr XL to keep going financially - marking exam papers and that kind of slave labour (paid for our summer holiday hire of a gite in France for a week - we arrived in said old banger at 1am on the back of an AA lorry).
hurdlerate
Posted - 09 March 2017 11:17
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I thought tax law was one of the very most , if not the most lucrative area there was. I imagine corporates pay fortunes and dont skimp on fees.
sporting_zucchini
Posted - 09 March 2017 11:18
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🐝 buzz Posted - 09 March 2017 10:11
I actually did do some rabbit law as a trainee. Defending claims against a landowner on whose land rabbits lived causing damage to neighbours crops. Had to do a few applications in Staffs County Court discussing with a DJ Roman Law guff like the distinction between ferae naturae and animus revertendi.

Buzz - that's a fascinating and engaging anecdote m7.

I hope you and the DJ also discussed Cowfat v Wheedle on the related topic of snails, held by Mr Justice Wool to be ferae naturae. There was almost a digression into Rylands v Fletcher. See AP Herbert's Uncommon Law, still just as entertaining. Better than real Law Reports any day.




🐝 buzz
Posted - 09 March 2017 11:29
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Heh, I'll look at that. We had a lever arch file of case law with a picture of bunny on the front.

Any roffers suffering damage to their million pound two bed 3rd floor flat in Zone 2 caused by neighbouring bunnies should complete the attached

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/.../A02_rabbit_complaint_form.doc
3-ducks
Posted - 09 March 2017 11:48
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Lollers
Thos. Pink
Posted - 09 March 2017 12:54
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Suspect in general people get paid more cos:

1. Some initial good fortune: Not being born a total moron

1.1 being born in close proximity to London or other major UK commercial hub; No

1.2 Parents who are already in a 'professional' industry so have knowledge of career path, maybe contacts who can help; No

2. Good school -- private education is clearly a bonus -- and parental support; No

3. Good academics; good university Yes

4. Clear idea of what they want to achieve and the will to follow that through; No, never thought about it

5. A bit of hard work; a bit of good fortune to get into a good position; Yes

6. Then it's a case of grinding out the levels, knowing the right people and luck. No. Working hard and delivering what your bosses want. And not being a total khvnt.
Thos. Pink
Posted - 09 March 2017 12:55
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7. NOT WORKING FOR A LAW FIRM HELPS. NORMAL COMPANIES ARE FILLED WITH DROSS AND LESS SOCIOPATHS. YOU CAN SHINE BY BEING NORMAL
🐝 buzz
Posted - 09 March 2017 12:58
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8 . Knowing when to use "less" and when to use "fewer".
wangpain 4 nuclear disarmament
Posted - 09 March 2017 13:04
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"And not being a total khvnt."

TPS you were so very close to success...
Thos. Pink
Posted - 09 March 2017 13:05
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I did walk into that.

However much you may not want to believe it - I am not a khvnt in work, or really IRL.
Montagueh
Posted - 09 March 2017 13:05
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Given how far you've got, wangle, that one's bolox, though, innit...
Terence Brent D'arby
Posted - 09 March 2017 13:08
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'NORMAL COMPANIES ARE FILLED WITH DROSS AND LESS SOCIOPATHS'

Fewer sociopaths
🐝 buzz
Posted - 09 March 2017 13:09
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9. Attention to detail.
Thos. Pink
Posted - 09 March 2017 13:10
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That less and fewer thing has really held me back on the cash front (which is what this thread is about).
3-ducks
Posted - 09 March 2017 13:11
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"being born in close proximity to London or other major UK commercial hub"
- NO, not that relevant, you can move

"Parents who are already in a 'professional' industry so have knowledge of career path, maybe contacts who can help"
- MAYBE early on but only peripheral signifiance

"Good school -- private education is clearly a bonus -- and parental support"
YES

"Good academics; good university"
YESs, to a large extent, but bluffing goes a long way

"Clear idea of what they want to achieve and the will to follow that through"
NO

"A bit of hard work; a bit of good fortune to get into a good position"
YES

"Then it's a case of grinding out the levels, knowing the right people and luck."
YES
wangpain 4 nuclear disarmament
Posted - 09 March 2017 13:20
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Anyone who has worked in a law firm knows that being a khunt is the very core to success and promotion.
Analyst
Posted - 09 March 2017 14:32
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I have worked in some fairly big organisations and frequently been appalled at just how blatant pay discrimination is. One example that springs to mind is an internal hire I made at EY. A v talented sales director from one of the service lines joined my team and I became aware that she was on half her peers even though she was the same grade. There was huge resistance to me rectifying this...in the end just went ahead and did it. The wrath was awful but not much they could do about it. They tried to pile the pressure on her to get her to quit but she just nailed it. Awesome gal.
Hand 2 Gland Combat
Posted - 09 March 2017 14:37
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And after all that effort you made in advancing female equality in the workplace did she let you **** her?
pancake humper
Posted - 09 March 2017 14:45
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idg how that happens at a big 4 firm, salaries at those places are pretty strictly banded
3-ducks
Posted - 09 March 2017 14:56
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It's taken me all this time to figure out you're talking about Ernst & Young. Can everyone stop using acronyms!
Wellington
Posted - 09 March 2017 15:02
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dux still hasn't got over the last rebranding of the East India Company
🐝 buzz
Posted - 09 March 2017 15:04
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*ponders playing the "acronym" pendant card*

*cba'd*
3-ducks
Posted - 09 March 2017 15:06
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grrrr!
Analyst
Posted - 09 March 2017 17:17
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saoirse99
Posted - 09 March 2017 14:41 Report as offensive Report Offensive
why taf was EY letting you anywhere near their hiring policy?


Tends to happen when you are on the Exec Board luv
chimp_
Posted - 09 March 2017 17:31
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You're an experienced tax lawyer, Clergham. Why not move to London if earning less bothers you so much? You could probably double your salary.
Thos. Pink
Posted - 09 March 2017 17:43
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Quite right Clergs. Best to spend 14 hours a day on ROF.
chimp_
Posted - 09 March 2017 17:43
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With that kind of money you can probably retire early and end up spending fewer hours total at your desk
Montagueh
Posted - 09 March 2017 17:45
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So, wot were the salient results of your survey, clergs...
sad banta
Posted - 09 March 2017 17:49
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That it's still easy to tun ?
chimp_
Posted - 09 March 2017 17:50
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Reading this message board has definitely been harmful to my perception of what it is to make a good income. Easy to end up feeling like a failure for not being in the top 0.1% of the distribution
sad banta
Posted - 09 March 2017 18:05
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According to your timesheets, you're only 27.
Analyst
Posted - 09 March 2017 18:39
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It never ceases to amaze me that you people seemingly train so long, work insane hours and take it up the arse all day from wankers for **** all money.

Thank god I was born thick
Salacious B. Crumb
Posted - 09 March 2017 18:59
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"Tends to happen when you are on the Exec Board luv"

Yes but you weren't so the question remains unanswered.
Ukiyo-e
Posted - 09 March 2017 19:04
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He has a bit of a point though. Especially for Scots lawyers.
Jethro won it for Labour
Posted - 09 March 2017 19:12
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Bindo was on the executive board of Ernst & Young?

Bloody hell that's impressive.
Jethro won it for Labour
Posted - 09 March 2017 19:17
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Was it because of his special forces skillz?
wangpain 4 nuclear disarmament
Posted - 09 March 2017 19:21
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Yeah he ran EY's black ops division

We audit but we report 2 no1
Analyst
Posted - 10 March 2017 00:26
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Yep. Odd how RoF perception and reality sometimes dont coincide..
Analyst
Posted - 10 March 2017 00:29
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cLergipoops I dont give a kittens if people envy me or not you narcisistic fucking weirdo. Normal people dont think like you do.
freek daze
Posted - 10 March 2017 01:10
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I imagine that if one looked into it, aptitude would turn out to have a fair bit to do with the differentials tbh.

However if we adjusted for aptitude and gender etc I'd say the differentiators are likely to be the following in descending order:

- willingness to work long hours
- whether or not you have serious ambitions that don't involve being well paid (i.e. You've chosen to do something better with your time)
- willingness to move to/stay in London or to a high paid expat zone
- self confidence

I am probably only just on the upper side of the ROF pay gap tbh but my relative well paidness is due in large part to being hard working but lacking internal direction. I disagree that focus is a big factor here. I've never had focus and nor have many successful lawyers I know. We'd all rather be doing a million other things but we have fallen into law and we respond to stimulus, external incentives and perhaps innate competitiveness. If I were focused, I'd focus on doing something poorly paid but interesting.
cІubman
Posted - 10 March 2017 07:28
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freek daze
Posted - 10 March 2017 07:32
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the inevitable has happened - Hyoo has merged with Lydia, to become one terrible Gestalt
O. Radiant Dawn
Posted - 10 March 2017 07:32
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And of course a rather overactive imagination and a flexible approach to the truth
The Darce
Posted - 10 March 2017 08:31
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So clergham are you going to do a list of salaries so we can all see where we sit ?
Lydia
Posted - 10 March 2017 09:05
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It is interesting why X earns £Y and Y earns £Z. Part of it might indeed be willingness to move to London although I am sure you can earn fairly well as a lawyer in Edinburgh. I had a meeting once with a very profitable firm from up there.

Another thing is just pressing on. I have worked most days since 1983. Other people my age have stopped or wandered off or had breakdowns or whatever. I just keep doing it.

I really don't think it would be Scottish accent. I did speak to an almost incoherent new Glaswegian client the other week and his accent might well be a problem down here but that is not the case with most educated Scots. In fact they are quite sought after and it's an accent of choice for call centres as so many different people like it. State school really is not a huge issue - London has a fair number of talented people earning quite a bit who went to state schools.

I think taking risks, moving, leaving security, changing jobs helps people get higher pay (although some will stay at the firm they trained with and do well there so even that is not a necessary factor).
chimes ♥
Posted - 10 March 2017 09:21
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So far as I see it, there are two things in life that most people want - time (to enjoy yourself/spend with family etc.) and money. You can have all the time in the world but no money (probably because you are unemployed) or so much money that you have no time to spend it (probably because you are working all hours). The ideal is to find where the two meet - so you have enough money to enjoy your time when not in the office.
camenbert
Posted - 10 March 2017 11:35
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Buzz - did you play Chas and Dave classic "Rabbit" when working on the case?

I'm loving the idea of black ops accountants. "What colour are the audit books in the Hereford boat house?"
sad banta
Posted - 10 March 2017 11:47
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IAS = international army soldiers
sad banta
Posted - 10 March 2017 11:51
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ICAEW = Institute of Covert Accountants for Espionage and Wetwork
camenbert
Posted - 10 March 2017 11:53
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GAAP - Generally Accepted Airborne Practices
Captain Mal
Posted - 10 March 2017 12:25
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Laz - do u think long hours are essential? I guess probably.

Somewhere along the way I think they generally are in law.

There are relatively cushy well paid jobs out there that don't involve working all hours - but to get them it generally helps if you have a CV that speaks to your previous hard work.

And what chimes said. I'm a bit of a mix of reasonably ambitious but incredibly lazy so I'd decided a long time ago the aim was dub tun+ without working evenings or weekends rather than partner in a decent law firm.
DeSelby
Posted - 15 March 2017 14:46
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Clergs, where did you publish the data? Cba going through all your other threads to find it...

danke.
I am Cyprian
Posted - 15 March 2017 15:59
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The average roffer makes £5.4m a day and has 43 Pateks.
boombastic
Posted - 15 March 2017 21:09
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Most firms will aim to get away with paying you the least possible sum. IF that means paying you 10% less than market but saying it is competitive then they will. You have to fight for every £££ unfortunately, which is pretty kittens given how crushingly hard most people in PP have to work.