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Patience Groove
Posted - 20 April 2017 22:05
FFS two people have been shot - how is this the international headline news? How many people have been shot around the world today? Why does the media play into the criminal nutters' hands every time?
Excession
Posted - 21 April 2017 08:09
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The police shot him very quickly. The intent was there to kill a lot more people.
It's an armed terrorist with known IS sympathies and intentionally killing police in a Western capital city. You expect it not to be headline news?
minkie
Posted - 21 April 2017 08:12
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I was having dinner with a friend from Paris last night, we told him about it when he arrived, he hadnt heard.
He just rolled his eyes, he said everyone is used to it now.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 08:33
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Hank:"FFS two people have been shot ". In fact, one person has been murdered, one has been shot dead and two shot and seriously injured.

Still, with "insignificant events" like these, who's counting a couple of extra victims, eh?

How do you know that this person was a "nutter"?


I was in the army y'know
Posted - 21 April 2017 08:12

The media is locked into this narrative of their being a "war" with IS. There isn't, of course.

True. Iraq is just a rambunctious stag party between good mates.
January Sails
Posted - 21 April 2017 08:46
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I wouldn't be surprised if there was a shooting incident in the US yesterday where more than two people died and it barely even made the local news.

Initially when I read about a guy targeting police my first reaction was it could well just be a general nutter with a grudge against the police.
January Sails
Posted - 21 April 2017 08:58
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Hero on average ten people a day are shot in the US and I can't see any reports on this week's shootings in our press so that's 50 that haven't been reported. They're only reported here if they are major spree killings or the dumb stuff like mothers being shot whilst driving by their toddlers. Carry on with your belief that the BBC reports everything from all over the world.
Weally Been
Posted - 21 April 2017 09:00
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Apparently ISIL have now named their martyr as Abu Yousif. Sensibly the French have tried to keep the identity confidential whilst chasing other suspects but perhaps ISIL didn't want any more of their potential martyrs to be lost in the field as it were so let his identity slip.

Unsurprisingly he's well known to the authorities and is most certainly a bad hombre that I'm sure the French and Belgians and everyone else were highly wary of. He's had a couple of significant run ins with the cops - recently when he was shopped only to be released for lack of evidence and longer ago when he went nuts shooting cops and served some jail time as a result. At least I'm just passing on what I'm reading about this terrorist.
January Sails
Posted - 21 April 2017 09:23
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Hero I'm not ignoring it I'm just saying that it's not particularly different to many of the other random crimes that go on in this world and affect random passers by. You're really quite naive if you think that every remotely significant crime is reported as that would mean papers just full of stabbings and shootings. Hundreds of people in the US are killed by serial killers every year but we only ever hear about the major ones who are caught.

Yes this had a different motivation from many violent crimes but it's nothing special.
shootsflowers
Posted - 21 April 2017 09:35
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Seems like anyone can commit a crime and say it is in the name of isis, no training and no prior interaction. Is that how it works?
Weally Been
Posted - 21 April 2017 09:37
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If ISIS come out and take responsibility, then that's not irrelevant is it
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 09:47
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It makes bugger-all difference whether IS had any role in it at all.

A terrorist with the same ideological motivation remains a terrorist. His victims remain dead. Or in agony. Or terrified.

IS remains an organisation that slaughters and murders on a massive scale.

Hank remains of the view that these are "insignificant events" and that they're only about individuals' mental health. .

Weally Been
Posted - 21 April 2017 10:00
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It's not about a link to a religion you prick it's about a link to a terrorist group

More specifically it's about a link to a terrorist group that says quite openly that they are at war with your society, citizenship and institutions and have in fact persistently and recently attacked and attacked again.
January Sails
Posted - 21 April 2017 10:10
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Hero how older are you? IS don't ever remotely scare me the way that the Irish used to who knew how to do proper organised terrorism rather than encouraging the odd petty criminal to launch an amateur ill prepared attack.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 10:13
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McSneerin: could I trouble you to explain what I have aggrandised, or what my agenda is here? I'd really like to know some details about my attitude to victims of "white Christian male" killers and about all the times I have commented about the mental health or "lone wolf" status of non-Muslim killers.
Weally Been
Posted - 21 April 2017 10:15
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I just said it has nothing to do with a religion or are you only seeing what you want to see?
Weally Been
Posted - 21 April 2017 10:17
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My response was in relation to the 10:11 post
Weally Been
Posted - 21 April 2017 10:21
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Btw if it wasn't linked to the terrorist group how would they know who the dead attacker was before the police released his identity? How would they be first to do it at the same time as they said they did it?
January Sails
Posted - 21 April 2017 10:36
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Weally I dare say that he told a mate of his what he was going to do who told a mate of his and when it happened one of them told someone connected to IS so they could take responsibility. I seriously doubt though that someone in the terrorism ministry in Raqqa sent this guy a direct order to shoot a couple of policemen although he may have discussed with a couple of fellow sympathisers in France who influenced the timing of it.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 10:37
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McSneerin, I see. Let me see if I can help you a little. If Hank calls multiple murders "insignificant events", and I challenge that, it DOES NOT imply anything whatsoever about how I regard other acts of murder. Hopey-helpey with your "logical conclusion". And to help even more, why would I talk about other deaths in response to Hank calling specific events "insignificant? Again, hopey-helpey with your "logical conclusion".

Unfortunately, however, nothing you said explains how you know what I think about the victims of "white Christian males". I loom forward to you actually answering the question I asked.

And just to help you a little bit more, I am sure it was very remiss of me not to have commented on Mr Roof. I guess the fact that I have never heard of him might have had something to do with it.

And to help even more, I DID actually comment about Jo Cox, but don't let facts get in your way.

Incidentally, you seem to have made up the existence of my cats, but, as I say, let facts get in your way.
Beermonster
Posted - 21 April 2017 10:39
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Given that it's par for the course for multiple aliases, can't ISIS just try to claim any attack by saying it was their brave warrior [Abu Widget-al-Mufti] and hope to get the benefit of the doubt that, even if the person was completely unconnected, people will believe it was one of their aliases?
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 11:00
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McLovin
Posted - 21 April 2017 10:46
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Way to prove that you don't care about the victims, only about hating muslims.

Thanks for playing

I'm sorry. McSeerin, I apologise. If I had realised the problems that logic, telling the truth and answering questions pose you, I would not have troubled you.

Let's just forget about your lies - oh soz, convenient amnesia - about Jo Cox, or your lies about my attitude to the mental health of non-Muslim killers, or your lies about my attitude to white Christian male killers, my apparently deliberate and racist failure to comment about a murderer I'd never heard of and even about your reference to feeding of the cats that I don't have. You just concentrate on the warm glow you get when you can feel morally superior to others, even if you have to lie about them to do so.

Toodle pip.
Weally Been
Posted - 21 April 2017 11:13
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Mclovin and saillaw all I'm seeing is handwringing to be honest

Certainly not seeing much spine

The reaction of the French police was much more reassuring - didn't seem like they just considered it to be routine criminal shoots cop scenario
Siegfreid
Posted - 21 April 2017 11:24
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I was less than 500m from the shooting last night, the police were commendable in that the city stayed perfectly open. Champs Elysee was evacuated but there was no difficulty with traffic as it all went via bld Haussmann.

The Telegraph headline that the centre of Paris was locked down was bollocks and they should look into not assisting DAESH with headlines like that. The taxis, trains, RER and Metro ran.
Monkeygirkl
Posted - 21 April 2017 11:42
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Well that was unexpected.

*curtsies*
Monkeygirkl
Posted - 21 April 2017 11:46
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Hardly busted. I don't hide it.
Patience Groove
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:00
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Question that I genuinely would like the answer to - for those who wish to label this sort of attack Islamic terrorism and escalate it to a big deal at the top of the global media agenda - do you think that is what the perpetrator would like or not? Do you think it is what extreme Islamofacism would like or not? Do you think this reaction is more likely to encourage or discourage future attacks? Please answer as I am genuinely interested in your view.
Patience Groove
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:14
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So nobody wants to answer my questions then? Quelle surprise
January Sails
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:48
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I'm not handwringing at all.

I only said my initial reaction was that it might be someone with a grudge against the police because he'd walked up to a police van and shot the police in it rather than rampaging shooting at a random.

I just don't really consider these proper terrorist attacks although their aim is to try and spread terror. Some guy who's inspired by a group and loosely affiliated to them going off on a half cocked lone mission with little planning is very different to an organised group with a clear hierarchy waging a sustained campaign. To be honest I'm just as likely to be stabbed by some guy with mental health problems on my way to lunch as be involved in IS inspired terrorism.

Certainly the police response to these attacks is very different to a traditional terrorist attack as it's almost impossible to arrest anyone further up the chain of command as there isn't really a chain of a command.
Weally Been
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:53
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The perpetrator won't like it if they go so far that Trump loses his s h I t and piles with all his tanks occupying for the foreseeable future longer than in Afghanistan - doubt they'd love that
Patience Groove
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:56
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Er yes they would - they live in bedsits in Europe - there is nothing they would like better than for trump to fan the flames in the Middle East
minkie
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:02
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I think the bigger question is how or why so many young men become radicalised in France. Seeing as how McLovin is peobably right that these attacks are IS inspired rather than IS planned.

Theres a vast Muslim underclass in banlieu ghettos with nothing down for them. I dont know whether its very much worse than say parts of Bradford or Birmingham but you can see how it is a recipe for disaster.
Ash89
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:35
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I agree with McLovin
January Sails
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:36
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Well hero many of them were part of the non-muslim underclass but converted because of all of the attention that Islam is getting and because Islamists have worked out it's far easier to recruit people to the cause from disaffected parts of society than to convert the middle classes. To some extent these are the same people who in the US have been drawn to groups like the Branch Davidians and local militias and assorted white supremacist groups. There are plenty of our own underlcass who are drawn to other extremist groups but those groups prefer protests that end in a punch up to shooting people so they don't get the same coverage.

There have always been petty criminals and disaffected people who blame society for their failure and they are attracted to whatever fashionable cause reassures them that their failings are the fault of some other group that they should lash out.
minkie
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:37
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Because it is a Muslim underclass which is vulnerable to radicalisation.

Im not saying no other nutter could or would not strike similarly and that might happen. But broadly it doesnt, not yet.
Patience Groove
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:39
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Hero FFS if it were not for radical Islam these attacks would not be happening - nobody is denying that - that though is not the friggin point
January Sails
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:45
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But there are examples of similar attacks perpetrated by non-muslims but they tend to be less widely reported for various reasons not least because it doesn't justify maintaining a military presence in other countries. I think it Dylan Roof referred to earlier who went into a US church and shot a load of people in the name of white supremacy. I believe that he had also effectively self-radiscalised sitting at home reading extreme right wing stuff online.
minkie
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:04
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The Nice attacker was a poor example of Islamic practice iirc. (Other than for the obv reason) his neighbours said he ate pork and was a boozer.
But i think he still came from a backbround that lends itself to the radical cause. Its not the religion that is the problem, we know this, its the attraction of a death cult. Which is why better to tackle the problems that lead to social isolation etc etc
Patience Groove
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:24
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Oh Christ hadn't realised Lannister had cropped again - wouldn't have bothered
struandirk
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:42
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Thanks for the tun chaps. Didn't even need much contribution from me.